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Tangerine Retention Rates/Winter Promo Q1(Jan) 2018
January 5, 2018
2:17 pm
AlainJF
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Slybanking said
Just to resume. So far it is either 2.5% till May 31st or no offer at all. Nobody got another rate than 2.5% or a different maturity date?  

It looks like it is the case, and I am fine with this.

With the previous approach, in my case, it has always been "No Soup For You", despite following diligently every tricks and rules shared generously by the Tang-Promo-Specialists on this site. As a result, Tang lost me completely a while ago, and it helped me to discover many good alternatives that I've never considered, nor looked for, before.

I got the new offer, accepted it, and might now consider putting back some $ at Tang.

January 5, 2018
2:43 pm
Loonie
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Good fror you, Alain, for waiting them out and finding alternatives!

January 5, 2018
2:53 pm
Doug
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Loonie said
Tang is not getting as much publicity out of this consistently-2.5-for-them-that-gets-it deal than they have for their previous all-over-the-map deals. Also, by offering it for five months, there will be no buzz at beginning of April as usual.

It's hard to say for sure, but it looks to me like they might be phasing out this type of marketing. They seem to be normalizing towards simply meeting the competition, for their most desired customers, or a portion of them. Perhaps they have now completed their market research with the all-over-the-map offers. I suspect that's what it's been about. We have been part of an experiment, as in "let's see what they do if the carrot is this fat or this long", "where is the breaking point where the little hamsters will no longer be able or motivated to spin the wheel?", etc.  

I agree...perhaps I was too early on my previous prediction(s) of them phasing out or at least reducing their "net new money" promos? I think they may be willing to "take the plunge" and see how many dollars they lose without a promo offer for the summer months. In that way, they might just do a Jan-May (inclusive) and either Sept-Dec (inclusive) or Oct-Dec (inclusive) promo. If they only lose a few billion in deposits, they may well keep shortening up and phasing out the promos. sf-cool

For those that can remember, way back when, Tangerine has, historically, skipped a Summer Savings Sale, as they were called back then. sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

January 5, 2018
2:56 pm
Doug
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DavidAlta13 said

It does look as though Tang has changed:
The snapshot date - now the 1st business day; in 2017 it was the 2nd business day,
The start date - now the 2nd business day; in 2017 it was the 3rd business day (sometimes, but not always, the 5th of the 1st month in the quarter),
The term - now 5 mo's less the 1st day; in 2017 it was for the quarter less the 1st two business days, and
The interest rate, down by 0.25% to 2.5%, matching or beating competitors' rates that are in effect past Feb 28.

If your offer is the same as mine, you have until Jan 31 to activate it.
As far as I can tell, the date you activate does not affect the effective date of the offer: if you activate on Jan 5, 8 or 31, the 2.5% on new deposits would be retroactive to Jan 3.

In case Tang uses Thu May 31 as the next snapshot date, with any new offer starting Mon Jun 4 and going for 5(?) mo's to Oct 31, I will move my money out to Hubert on Mon May 28, wait Hubert's 4 day hold (May 29-Jun 1) and back to Tang on Jun 4. Those simply moving from Tang Savings to Tang chequing may want to do that on May 31.  

Point of clarification: Hubert's hold period is, as far as I remember, 10 calendar days.

Cheers,
Doug

January 5, 2018
2:58 pm
Loonie
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In the summer, it probably takes a lot of people 3 months to realize they're not getting much return on this account! Iin this case, that will bring us to Sept, when people hunker down and get serious again.

Also, there is a reasonable chance that rates will go up a little by summer and that a bit of that will spill over into consumer deposit rates, so they will have to do less to stand still.

January 5, 2018
3:14 pm
Doug
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Loonie said
In the summer, it probably takes a lot of people 3 months to realize they're not getting much return on this account! Iin this case, that will bring us to Sept, when people hunker down and get serious again.

Also, there is a reasonable chance that rates will go up a little by summer and that a bit of that will spill over into consumer deposit rates, so they will have to do less to stand still.  

On the first part, it seems we agree.

On the second: Maybe. I'm still holding to one BoC rate increase this year, likely in October. sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

January 5, 2018
3:22 pm
dougjp
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Doug said

On the first part, it seems we agree.

On the second: Maybe. I'm still holding to one BoC rate increase this year, likely in October. sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug  

October?
http://business.financialpost......t=Netvibes

January 5, 2018
5:35 pm
moneyman
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I agree with dougjp likely sooner. Thanks for the link.

Called tangerine yesterday after waiting 35mins and said pulling all the $$. He asked why I said better rate elsewhere. He asked if I'd consider staying if the rate was better I said yes. Put on hold for 15s offered 2.5% for 90 days agreed.

Tangerines next step is likely to cut the csr agents by 50% so the big depositors who need the phone call to move funds will likely fall into the lower rates by submission. Yes I know if you want something your gonna have to work for it.

January 5, 2018
5:58 pm
Slybanking
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moneyman said
I agree with dougjp likely sooner. Thanks for the link.

Called tangerine yesterday after waiting 35mins and said pulling all the $$. He asked why I said better rate elsewhere. He asked if I'd consider staying if the rate was better I said yes. Put on hold for 15s offered 2.5% for 90 days agreed.
 

So you get the same rate as the Winter special and for 3 months (could be good since the rate might go up) and its for all your money (not new money only). I say It looks even better than the Winter special....

January 5, 2018
6:20 pm
Doug
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dougjp said

October?
http://business.financialpost......tvibes  

Thanks for sharing the link, dougjp. Nice name, too. sf-cool

I realize I'm probably taking a bit of a contrarian view in this regard but I don't believe the BoC should be looking at the fall 2017 calendar quarter as a sign of an ongoing job boom. Fall is historically, anecdotally to me at least, known for being the best in terms of both retail and wholesale trade data.

Also, I don't think the effects of the prior BoC rate hikes and macro-prudential regulatory and legislative policy changes vis-a-vis housing has worked there way into the system, not to mention the rising bond yields, which are effectively doing the BoC's job for it.

This economy is on "tender hooks," I think, and tilting one way too aggressively will prompt a severe recession. 🙁

That being said, the selfish investor in me says, "Go BoC go! Raise the rates! Raise the rates! Prompt a recession, Great Depression 2.0 even, and create some buying opportunities for me in this over-heated stock market."

Cheers,
Doug

January 5, 2018
6:22 pm
Doug
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Slybanking said
So you get the same rate as the Winter special and for 3 months (could be good since the rate might go up) and its for all your money (not new money only). I say It looks even better than the Winter special....  

Yes, this is a "retention rate" they offer to people threatening to move money elsewhere or to those that didn't get a promo. By opting for it, though, you run the risk of being "blacklisted" by their Marketing department in terms of future promos and always having to ask for retention rates, to which there's no guarantee you'll get those in the future. 🙂

Cheers,
Doug

January 5, 2018
6:30 pm
smayer97
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Doug said

Yes, this is a "retention rate" they offer to people threatening to move money elsewhere or to those that didn't get a promo. By opting for it, though, you run the risk of being "blacklisted" by their Marketing department in terms of future promos and always having to ask for retention rates, to which there's no guarantee you'll get those in the future. 🙂

Cheers,
Doug  

Nah...I took a retention rate last quarter and still received this new promo, just a day later, right after my retention rate period expired. There is no guarantee of getting any rate, either way.

January 5, 2018
8:35 pm
Joe
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It will get interesting if the BOC rate goes up in January then again in April, as some are predicting on BNN, after that stellar jobs report. It could add pressure on Simplii to continue there 3%?sf-cool

Tangerine....Canada's best bank. LBC.............Canada's 2nd best bank.
Hubert.....worst bank in Canada.

January 5, 2018
9:06 pm
DavidAlta13
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Joe said
It will get interesting if the BOC rate goes up in January then again in April, as some are predicting on BNN, after that stellar jobs report. It could add pressure on Simplii to continue there 3%?sf-cool  

"Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future."
--Nils Bohr, Nobel laureate in Physics

"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge. "
--Lao Tzu, 6th Century BC Chinese Poet

Here is my current opinion about when interest rates will rise and by how much in both the USA & Canada, with Canada lagging by about 6 mo.'s:
2018 +0.25%, 2019-2021 +0.50% annually and 2022 +0.25%.

I am an economist and financial analyst that has built extremely sophisticated models used to forecast such things as the electricity prices used for 20-year power purchase agreements and the demographic changes used for planning schools, hospitals and power generation plants to meet the demand for electricity. None of these models' predictions turned out to be right.

Based on this experience, there is one thing that I am certain of:
My above interest rate forecast will also be wrong.

January 5, 2018
9:13 pm
Loonie
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sf-laughLove it, DavidAlta13!sf-wink

January 5, 2018
9:17 pm
DavidAlta13
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Doug said

... when you average out Tangerine's rate offers for most clients, taking into account the "high" and "low" ones for the whole year, it's my experience we generally earn 2.4-2.7% year for the last couple years or so. On that basis, even if you ended up at EQ Bank all or most of the year, that's only 10 to 40 bps difference. Not a huge difference by any stretch. sf-cool

40 bps on my $500K for 2017 would have been an extra $2,000 at Tang vs. EQ Bank.

I am very happy for Doug that he is so wealthy that this difference is "Not a huge difference by any stretch. sf-cool". For me, it represents a significant and material amount.

I hope Doug feels free to private message me to arrange to send $2,000.
As this 40 bps is apparently immaterial for him, I trust he won't even notice.sf-wink

"Cheers",
David

January 5, 2018
9:20 pm
DavidAlta13
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Doug said (post 98)

Deposit balances are captured start of day, I believe, even though your rate of interest is paid for the day is calculated on end of day balances.

Cheers,
Doug  

Doug said (post 104)

I'm not certain about that. Although deposit balances are totaled end of day, you cannot be certain that the "net new money" promo doesn't actually use the end of day balances from Jan. 1st, 2018. The wording is specifically vague such that they could be accurately saying they are using the Jan. 2nd, 2018 deposit balances if they are going by the Jan. 2nd balance at the start of the day. I would not, personally, risk of earning only "posted rates" for a month (or more) with transfers in and out the same day.sf-cool

Forum readers: use caution in taking the above advice from Slybanking in terms of deposit capture dates. For comfort, I would check your Jan. 1st deposit balance before deciding if you will earn promo interest. 🙂

Cheers,
Doug  

"Deposit balances are captured start of day, I believe".
Unfortunately, this belief is false.

"The wording is specifically vague such that they could be accurately saying they are using the Jan. 2nd, 2018 deposit balances if they are going by the Jan. 2nd balance at the start of the day."
This assertion is false.

There is nothing vague about Tang's wording about whether they use the Jan 2, 2018 balance at the start or the end of the day:
Sections 19 and 20 of Tang's Full Offer Terms and Conditions are quite clear that they use the balances at the end of the day:

"19. Applicable Accounts opened prior to January 2, 2018 are eligible for Additional Interest on the sum of daily Applicable Account Type balances that exceeds the sum of closing Applicable Account Type balances as at January 2, 2018.
20. Eligible Clients who have an open Applicable Account prior to January 2, 2018 may open a new Applicable Account, however, only balances that exceed the sum of the closing Applicable Account Type balances as at January 2, 2018 will be eligible for the Additional Interest."

Forum readers: always do you own fact checks .

January 5, 2018
9:23 pm
DavidAlta13
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Doug said

Point of clarification: Hubert's hold period is, as far as I remember, 10 calendar days.

Cheers,
Doug  

Fact check:

Many times in 2017, I successfully withdrew funds from Hubert four business days after depositing them.

Here's what Hubert's FAQ page shows:

How long are my deposits I transfer in from another institution held?
All electronic transfers are held for four business days, but you start earning interest as soon as you see the deposit in your account.

January 5, 2018
10:01 pm
Loonie
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I agree, 40 bps is a lot if you have enough money to make it be a lot.
I also agree that most people don't have enough to make it be a lot, and I believe Canadian statistics will bear that out.

However, quite a few people on this forum seem to have enough that it does matter significantly.

If you have many millions of dollars, even 2K may not seem like a whole lot, and I suppose you might not bother chasing it. I have read though that rich people get that way by being miserly about small amounts.

I look at it in terms of absolute dollars. If a switch is going to net me less than $300, I'm probably not going to get around to it and I don't think it's worth messing around with the "relationship" i have with current FI - such as it may be. If it's 300-500, I might get around to it. If it's over 500, I will do it.

No doubt this vague formula is somehow related to my net worth, but everyone evaluates the reward:effort:consequences ratios differently. Some people will follow every dollar, and some won't, regardless of how much they already have - and that goes for both rich and poor.

I have been known to break my own "rules", usually irrationally, but I think it's important to observe when you are being irrational.sf-embarassed

January 6, 2018
7:29 am
savemoresaveoften
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Loonie said

I look at it in terms of absolute dollars. If a switch is going to net me less than $300, I'm probably not going to get around to it and I don't think it's worth messing around with the "relationship" i have with current FI - such as it may be. If it's 300-500, I might get around to it. If it's over 500, I will do it.
sf-embarassed  

Given these days all transactions are made electronically, it does not take much effort to move money around. If you calculate how much time you actually spend to move money around to "earn that extra interest", your hourly rate for that effort is very high (imagine $300 and take u 5 mins, thats $3600/hr. Even $20 extra at 5mins is like $240/hr. >99% dont make that kind of hourly rate).

Other than earning extra interest, it also keeps the banks in check to offer reasonable rates for deposit. I am not against any corporation (banks or not) for making a good profit, but earn it in a respectable manner (even after paying 2.5% and lending it out at Prime+0.5%, there is still >100bp profit in it) One thing I absolutely despise is banks charging $5-10 monthly fee on accounts with min balance, as it hits the poor the most and not justified as all account admin are automated these days.

In terms of relationship with an FI, its not different than your relationship with ur telco. Loyalty does not get rewarded. A relationship with a FI may be worth something for a small business, but not rate chasers on this site.

Please write your comments in the forum.