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Pace Securities
January 1, 2021
6:48 pm
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Dave_1 said
holy cow Batman ! Hold the phone. Have you read this ?

James Bradshaw's twitter feed from overnight.

  

PACE will probably try to cover itself by suing FSRA for their clear negligence.

PRRR may also sue both parties as well for their negligence.

PCUs insurance and the PSC executives insurance covers legal costs as well as settlements.

After the insurance is settled, the debenture and possible share swap covers the difference.

January 1, 2021
7:16 pm
Loonie
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I have not been reading this thread regularly so am not up to date on what is going on, but I thought you'd all like to know that Ernie Eves, principal in Pace Securities, has just been awarded the Order of Ontario. Perhaps it will improve his image if he ends up in court.

Why is it that I can't help but thinking of Trump pardoning all his guilty friends?

January 2, 2021
10:54 am
Norman1
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Ernie Eves is likely very sorry he agreed to be chairman of PACE Securities. However, he can plausibly say he did nothing wrong. The regulator IIROC did investigate and started proceedings only against Thomson and McRae.

Something similar happened to former Ontario premier David Peterson with YBM Magnetics in 1998. OSC ruled that, while Peterson could have done more, he did act reasonably as one of the directors and let him off.

January 2, 2021
11:16 am
Norman1
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member said

PACE will probably try to cover itself by suing FSRA for their clear negligence.

PRRR may also sue both parties as well for their negligence.

PCUs insurance and the PSC executives insurance covers legal costs as well as settlements.

After the insurance is settled, the debenture and possible share swap covers the difference.

They can sue anyone they want. It doesn't mean they will win. And when they lose, they also have to cover the legal fees for the other side.

Liability insurance doesn't work like that. Have a look at your own personal liability insurance. It's not like a health plan where one goes to a doctor of one's choice, gets a prescription of one's choosing, has the prescription filled at a pharmacy of one's choice, and the insurance company just pays.

Their insurance also likely doesn't cover that. Instead, it covers defence lawyers chosen by the insurance company settling the way the insurance company's lawyers decide and not what the credit union or PACE Security chooses.

No insurance company is stupid enough to allow the insured party to negotiate its own settlement and then pin whatever it costs on the insurance company! I'll buy a policy like that. Scratch my neighbour's door. Agree to settle with my neighbour for $10,000. Neighbour receives the $10,000 payout. Spends $1,000 to replace the door with the scratch and gives me a $2,000 gift card for Christmas to show there are no hard feelings!

Also, once the matter is settled, it is settled. One can't then come after the insured party for any shortfall.

You definitely need to talk to PRRR or a lawyer to become informed about how these things actually work.

January 2, 2021
11:36 am
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Dave_1 said
holy cow Batman ! Hold the phone. Have you read this ?

James Bradshaw's twitter feed from overnight.

  

PACE Credit Union has already communicated that they were wrong and the issue now is find the appropriate process to come up with a solution.

IIROC and PACE also blames FSRA for not acting quickly enough. Plus there is insurance for settlements.

January 2, 2021
11:43 am
Elaine
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Norman1 said
Ernie Eves is likely very sorry he agreed to be chairman of PACE Securities. However, he can plausibly say he did nothing wrong. The regulator IIROC did investigate and started proceedings only against Thomson and McRae.

Something similar happened to former Ontario premier David Peterson with YBM Magnetics in 1998. OSC ruled that, while Peterson could have done more, he did act reasonably as one of the directors and let him off.  

Elaine...... is very sorry she agreed to buy a GIC with Pace Securities.(No likely there).I say I did nothing wrong(No plausibly there)
I IROC has never investigated me (because my advisor was not even licensed with them)FSRA has investigted me(and then said that's it-no explanation)
I might be wrong-I am not as professional as Norman1 appears to be-just an old lady with money gone into someone else's pockets.Would love to know whose.

January 2, 2021
12:00 pm
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Elaine...... is very sorry she agreed to buy a GIC with Pace Securities.(No likely there).I say I did nothing wrong(No plausibly there)
I IROC has never investigated me (because my advisor was not even licensed with them)FSRA has investigted me(and then said that's it-no explanation)
I might be wrong-I am not as professional as Norman1 appears to be-just an old lady with money gone into someone else's pockets.Would love to know whose.  

FSRA and PACE are already “of the position” that PACE and PACE Securities violated the legislation governing credit unions (liability) but the issue is how to go about addressing the issue.

This is where the finger pointing starts with IIROC blaming FSRA and PACE and FSRA blaming each other. It also gets tricky because certain actions occurred before FSRA took over PACE, while it administered PACE and then after it released PACE from administration and Barbara and the Cabal were appointed.

Now FSRA has stepped in a second time and appointed the new CEO, so we’ll see what happens.

January 2, 2021
12:12 pm
Elaine
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member said
Elaine...... is very sorry she agreed to buy a GIC with Pace Securities.(No likely there).I say I did nothing wrong(No plausibly there)
I IROC has never investigated me (because my advisor was not even licensed with them)FSRA has investigted me(and then said that's it-no explanation)
I might be wrong-I am not as professional as Norman1 appears to be-just an old lady with money gone into someone else's pockets.Would love to know whose.  

FSRA and PACE are already “of the position” that PACE and PACE Securities violated the legislation governing credit unions (liability) but the issue is how to go about addressing the issue.

This is where the finger pointing starts with IIROC blaming FSRA and PACE and FSRA blaming each other. It also gets tricky because certain actions occurred before FSRA took over PACE, while it administered PACE and then after it released PACE from administration and Barbara and the Cabal were appointed.

Now FSRA has stepped in a second time and appointed the new CEO, so we’ll see what happens.  

Which is all very nice
BUT
if someone came into my house and stole stuff there would be criminal investigation and I would end up knowing who stole my stuff and that individual would end up paying the price.
So-I want to know where my money is and I want it back.And I want anyone who was involved in this scam to be paying a price.If Pace tellers were pushing this crap on elderly people those individuals should NOT continue to work as bank tellers.Just my opinion,which is worth less than crap in some people's opinions.Pace needs to be cleaned up-not just at the top -but in the lower ranks as well.It is a poisoned place where you no longer know which manager or teller was involved in this circus.Would I trust any of them-should I trust any of them?

January 2, 2021
2:00 pm
Norman1
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Elaine said

Which is all very nice
BUT
if someone came into my house and stole stuff there would be criminal investigation and I would end up knowing who stole my stuff and that individual would end up paying the price.
So-I want to know where my money is and I want it back.And I want anyone who was involved in this scam to be paying a price.…

It may feel like it. But, there's nothing so far to indicate that someone pocketed your money. Your losses are from the loss in the value of the junk bonds the money was invested in. That's what makes things complicated.

Your $100,000 went to PACE Financial for those preferred shares. 5% (or 10%, depending on the rate) of it was paid by PACE Financial to PACE Credit Union as a finders fee and split, in some way, with your "advisor".

The remaining $90,000 or $95,000 was spent by PACE Financial to buy $90,000 or $95,000 of junk bonds. Another $90,000 or $95,000 was borrowed from LBS to buy another $90,000 to $95,000 of junk bonds for a total of $180,000 to $190,000 of junk bonds.

Everything was rosy for awhile. The junk bonds paid interest. Some of that interest came back to you as those 5% to 7% dividends. Some of the bond interest paid the interest on the loan from LBS.

When the COVID pandemic stuck, markets crashed. Value of the junk bonds crashed. LBS called the loan because the value of the junk bonds, used as loan collateral, no longer met requirements. PACE Financial was forced to sell bonds at the bottom of the crash at a loss to pay back LBS.

What bonds are still left of the $180,000 to $190,000 of junk bonds are now worth a fraction of your $100,000 investment. sf-frown

January 2, 2021
2:27 pm
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This article does a great job of showing FSRA clearly dropped the ball here and the upcoming IIROC hearing in February will help display their ineptitude along with PSCs negligence.

The current PRRR case has not named FSRA as a defendant, so PACE may file a separate suit after settling things.

January 2, 2021
2:45 pm
Norman1
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member said

This article does a great job of showing FSRA clearly dropped the ball here and the upcoming IIROC hearing in February will help display their ineptitude along with PSCs negligence.

It doesn't matter. Read the rest of the article about the likelihood of succeeding against FSRA and brush up on regulator immunity.

January 2, 2021
2:53 pm
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Elaine said

Elaine...... is very sorry she agreed to buy a GIC with Pace Securities.(No likely there).I say I did nothing wrong(No plausibly there)
I IROC has never investigated me (because my advisor was not even licensed with them)FSRA has investigted me(and then said that's it-no explanation)
I might be wrong-I am not as professional as Norman1 appears to be-just an old lady with money gone into someone else's pockets.Would love to know whose.

Unfortunately, it is lot harder in practice for a blameless investor to recover funds lost from theft or a failed investment than for a blameless accused to avoid fines or sanctions.

For accused, the regulator just needs to do nothing afterwards.

January 2, 2021
2:54 pm
Angelofdebt
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Exactly. The latest globe article indicated that Fsra even offered the possibility that PCU could sue them to recover. Fsra is trying to cover themselves as well. They did screw up. They are going the mediation route to try and get a quiet settlement so that the details will be kept quiet. Affected members really wont care which settlement method gets used as long as the dollars are returned to their accounts. Mediation would hopefully be the ‘nicer’ and less messy method. The capital to equity ratio is not a huge factor. Even if PCU pays out the $50 mil and has $2 mil cap left. I have no qualms with the credit union being destroyed. Fsra will just step in again and distribute the pieces. They would probably go that route and use PCU as a sacrificial lamb to cover their own ineptitude. Again as long as the affected are made whole.

January 2, 2021
2:57 pm
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James Bradshaw's twitter feed from overnight.

  

The article explains why PRRR is going after PCU while leaving FSRA out.

Although it’s always a high bar to pursue a regulator, that can be left for PACE to deal with because of FSRAs actions or rather lack of actions before placing PCU under administration and while running it under their administration.

Obviously, PACE, IIROC and FSRA know a lot more than what was written in the article and IIROC had already lodged several concerns over FSRAs conduct.

The main thing is that PRRR is correct to focus on PACE at this time.

January 2, 2021
3:10 pm
Elaine
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Of course if I had gone in to invest something what you are saying has some merit.
I went in to renew a GIC that had expired.Went to the front desk at Pace Credit Union at East Mall and when I said that I could get a better interest rate somewhere else someone said-oh wait-we have a special that is expiring today-
I had never been in Pace before (actually I had been in to get money out for work being done) but had never been to get a GIC.I thought this was normal at PACE.When I went to renew a GIC that had not yet expired a year later and the GIC rate was adequate I said that I would get it and was surprised I was not taken into the ROOM.
This was theft. At a Credit Union.Of 100 thousand dollars.I was in there to get a GIC and I was never given any paperwork to show otherwise.This is theft.Plain and simple and if a smart guy like you can't get it then I can't help you.Maybe repeating it over and over again will help you to understand(if in fact you want to understand)But I do appreciate your input and I can't expect you to remember all of us.I was very naive.I did not expect something like this at a Credit Union.
The chips will fall where they may- if I play by your rules someone at the very least stole 3 thousand dollars from me(when I got the paperwork from E&Y the commission was 3%)A real human being-who pocketed that money along with others that pocketed money from it.
Just sayin'
Which is all very nice
BUT
if someone came into my house and stole stuff there would be criminal investigation and I would end up knowing who stole my stuff and that individual would end up paying the price.
So-I want to know where my money is and I want it back.And I want anyone who was involved in this scam to be paying a price.…

January 2, 2021
3:27 pm
Yaftica
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The National Association for Credit Unions in Canada would like to remind everyone that:
E054A951-7365-468B-BD35-690E565456E6.jpegE8681054-B716-4A10-9DDE-1FC737F552B2.jpeg
(Since Pace Credit Union is temporarily pausing their mantra on this propaganda)

January 2, 2021
3:33 pm
Elaine
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Members first
we are not going anywhere
we are stronger and better than ever
I am thinking Barbara Dirks is watching this unfold and is so happy to be out of it.

January 2, 2021
3:52 pm
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Angelofdebt said
Exactly. The latest globe article indicated that Fsra even offered the possibility that PCU could sue them to recover. Fsra is trying to cover themselves as well. They did screw up. They are going the mediation route to try and get a quiet settlement so that the details will be kept quiet. Affected members really wont care which settlement method gets used as long as the dollars are returned to their accounts. Mediation would hopefully be the ‘nicer’ and less messy method. The capital to equity ratio is not a huge factor. Even if PCU pays out the $50 mil and has $2 mil cap left. I have no qualms with the credit union being destroyed. Fsra will just step in again and distribute the pieces. They would probably go that route and use PCU as a sacrificial lamb to cover their own ineptitude. Again as long as the affected are made whole.

Even if PACE Credit Union has to pay $50 million (for sake of example) they would only do so after using any insurance they have and would most likely not finance this out of capital.

They would finance the settlement with a low cost loan most likely from the Central One Credit Union which serves as the central bank for credit unions in Ontario and BC. Although we don’t know what the exact interest rate would be, PACE would debenture this over 25-30 years which would keep the interest and principal payments at level that could continue to operate under.

If they could “engineer” their way into this mess, they can “engineer” their way out of it especially since the new PACE CEO is from Central One.

Happy New Year.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-agencies-battle-over-who-dropped-the-ball-as-pace-credit-union-back/

January 2, 2021
4:22 pm
Loonie
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Norman1 said
Ernie Eves is likely very sorry he agreed to be chairman of PACE Securities. However, he can plausibly say he did nothing wrong. The regulator IIROC did investigate and started proceedings only against Thomson and McRae.

Something similar happened to former Ontario premier David Peterson with YBM Magnetics in 1998. OSC ruled that, while Peterson could have done more, he did act reasonably as one of the directors and let him off.  

If Eves is not being pursued by authorities, then I'd say he thinks he's darn lucky.
He is a former finance minister and premier, for goodness sake! He was far from naive about financial matters. It's not reasonable to think he didn't have the wits to know what sort of company he was keeping. It would be interesting to know what his previous associations were with these people and how he came to be involved.
These misdeeds reflect on him.

January 2, 2021
4:41 pm
Yaftica
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Poor Barb. Maybe she just didn’t play by the rules... Reminds me of how this scene played out & the line “You’re going to need a stronger stomach if you want to be back in the kitchen seeing how the sausage is made”

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