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Availability outside of Ontario
October 18, 2017
7:21 am
Doug
British Columbia, Canada
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Peter said
The topic of DUCA being listed in our comparison chart was brought up in the Tangerine Q4 2017 promo thread.

One of the criteria for being included in the chart is that the bank is accessible to people in all provinces and territories. If Quebec is excluded, this is noted in the chart.

There is no direct reference to DUCA's availability outside of Ontario on their website. I contacted DUCA customer support, and the answer is that DUCA is not permitted to operate or solicit outside of Ontario, although their by-laws state this:

2.01 Membership in the Credit Union shall be limited to:

(a) Persons who, if individuals, whether minors or adults, reside or are employed in any province or territory of Canada;

So, it sounds like anybody can open a DUCA account, but DUCA is not allowed to publicly say so.  

Peter, don't rely on their "terms and conditions" for inclusion in the chart. It's not always accurate. Credit unions are particularly bad for stating that provincial residency is a requirement but, based on what other forum users have said and DUCA has said as well privately, Ontario residency isn't a requirement. You have to confirm with them independently to see whether they allow non-virtual account openings. This is what I do for the "free chequing" chart. 🙂

If you've already removed Ideal Savings or DUCA, I'd like to see them restored while I seek independent confirmation of this (if it's required, though I don't think it should be).

Cheers,
Doug

October 18, 2017
7:29 am
Doug
British Columbia, Canada
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Peter said

2.01 Membership in the Credit Union shall be limited to:

(a) Persons who, if individuals, whether minors or adults, reside or are employed in any province or territory of Canada;

So, it sounds like anybody can open a DUCA account, but DUCA is not allowed to publicly say so.  

Re-read your full post and I think that's probably accurate. Provincial residency, or "common bond," is determined by provincial regulation. From what I've been able to determine, the following provinces have provincial residency requirements for all credit unions:

  1. British Columbia
  2. Alberta
  3. Quebec

This means that credit unions originating in those jurisdictions cannot open new memberships to residents (i.e., those with "home addresses") outside those provinces, even if they allow entirely virtual membership openings like Vancity, Coast Capital Savings and First West (among others).

However, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Ontario do and Manitoba seems to be the most liberal in terms of advertising to out-of-province potential customers (i.e., their virtual banking division "branches"). In Saskatchewan, for instance, Innovation Credit Union actually allows out-of-province sign-ups entirely online but their website says contrary to that, so likely the same reason as DUCA. Conexus Credit Union allows entirely online sign-ups from out-of-province residents but, currently, requires out-of-province residents to attend a branch to finalize the account opening (though they plan on changing that). In Ontario, DUCA allows fully online sign-ups from out-of-province residents whereas Alterna Savings & Credit Union (the parent of the Alterna Bank subsidiary) and FirstOntario also allow out-of-province residents but currently require finalization in a branch.

Hope that clarifies,
Doug

Note: I do not closely follow the Atlantic credit unions so I cannot state whether they allow out-of-province residents to sign up.

October 18, 2017
7:36 am
Doug
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Loonie said
There is a subtle but important difference between between inability to "solicit" or "operate" versus open to all "persons who reside in Canada".

DUCA can't "operate" in other provinces, i.e. have offices or address there, because it is a provincially regulated organization. It has no legal right to operate elsewhere as a financial institution. Similarly, it can't advertise ("solicit") outside of Ontario.
However, it can passively accept accounts from people who live elsewhere in Canada - as per by-laws.

As I recall, the situation is the same for the MB CUs. There is a reason why they don't advertise in Ontario, but Ontarians can and do have accounts there.

I think it's very annoying though that they would insist on a hard credit check when no borrowing is asked for.  

That's mostly correct, Loonie, though I'd add some provinces do restrict out-of-province residents to sign up with any of their regulated credit unions (currently, B.C., Alberta and likely Quebec). However, as you suggest, they can passively accept sign-ups from out-of-province residents in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Ontario, some entirely online. It depends on the credit union in each of those provinces and most allow it but, currently at least, require finalization in-branch. In Ontario, DUCA and Meridian allow fully online sign-ups. 🙂

As for the hard check, while annoying somewhat, these have little effect on one's credit score and only if you make more than, say, 6-7 hard credit checks per year. I've had 2-3 in the last 12 months and my credit score has gone up substantially , owing mostly to my total available/authorized credit having gone up and my credit utilization decreased.

Cheers,
Doug

October 18, 2017
7:50 am
Doug
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Loonie said
There is now a move afoot among some Ontario CUs, to get permission to call their activities "banking". I know that Meridian is part of this effort, but not sure where it's at.
I understand where they're coming from, as "bank" is, to some extent, a generic word in everyday speech, but I'd like to see them take more pride in their existence as CUs as they are always trying to tell us they are better than banks. The message, in the end, is confusing.  

While I agree with you on your point of them "taking more pride" in their existence as CUs and member-owned cooperatives, the reality is, most Canadian consumers have come to associate the terms "bank" and "banking" with any day-to-day financial services, regulated (provincially or federally) or not. The sudden OSFI rule change struck me as regulatory over-reach on the part of some power-tripping, over-zealous bureaucrat and was a classic example of the so-called "deep state." The term "bank" and "banking" should not be regulated and the Bank Act amended to remove those definitions and instead regulate certain functions of banking in general or use of words like "CDIC," "federal deposit insurance, "deposit insurance," etc. They might even go as far as to require prepaid credit cards be imprinted on the reverse with phrase, "This payment card does not constitute an instrument that is insured by a federal or provincial deposit insurer." sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

October 18, 2017
7:59 am
Doug
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While no longer marketed, the term trust is both provincially- and/or federally-regulated. If they are carrying on deposit-taking activities, they are required to be incorporated under the federal Trust and Loan Companies Act. If they are providing certain custodial or recordkeeping services, they may require federal supervision and/or incorporation but it depends on the activities and the size of the business (i.e., a small provincially-incorporated trust company that provides trust services for insolvency or estate management purposes).

The "Big 5" banks still maintain trust company subsidiaries (several for each in some cases), largely to hold legal lien status for mortgages or other real estate-secured lending and deposit-gathering activities from bank customers or from third-party deposit brokers. They are used for holding greater than $100,000 with a federally-regulated bank across multiple bank and trust company subsidiaries that can still be CDIC insured and are typically available within the same online banking system but "product coded" to signify its CDIC issuer status. It may also follow a separate account numbering scheme and would be issued under a separate transit & institution number. 🙂

Still, some trust companies still market themselves as such, like Peoples Trust Company or also Peace Hills Trust Company, owned by the Hobbema First Nation of Alberta, with 1-2 branches in 8-10 of Canada's provinces.

Also, I noticed that a recently renovated Mission Place Shopping Centre branch of TD Canada Trust has had its signage changed, dropping the "Canada Trust" from the sign. So, I wonder if TD is undergoing a rebranding to just "TD" as they renovate/consolidate/build new branches?

Cheers,
Doug

Footnote: An even more "rare breed" of federally-regulated company is the "loan and mortgage company," which can gather deposits as well. I think there's less than a dozen right now, some of which are in the process of winding up and consolidating in with their parent company. 🙂

February 28, 2018
4:08 pm
tc
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Just tried to open a savings account online, on the province space it is filled in for you as ontario and locked.You can't change it,so I guess they are pretty straight on residency.
It did say "open to ontario residents only" at the beginning

February 28, 2018
4:42 pm
Doug
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Ontario definitely allows out of province members to join its credit unions, so this is likely a policy change on the part of DUCA, which is really too bad. 🙁

In the end, they never did get added to the comparison chart; however, this will affect their standing in each of the "free chequing" and "services" charts, where availability to all Canadians, with the exception of Quebec, is generally a requirement. I'll add that to my list of updates to make, sometime in May.

Edit: Nevermind, just checked, for the "free chequing" chart, it's not a requirement, but I will update that out of province residents aren't permitted when I get around to looking into it and updating it in April.

Thanks for letting us know! sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

February 28, 2018
9:28 pm
Loonie
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I'm fairly sure that Saver-Mom posted having invested with DUCA from out of province a year or two ago.
While DUCA policy may have changed, I suggest phoning them to confirm. Perhaps there is an unaltered pdf application form they could send you.

March 1, 2018
11:29 am
tc
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Just called Duca, she said bylaws have changed. It's just for Ontario residents only.

March 1, 2018
1:35 pm
tcharger67
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just for curiousity sake. Why am I still aloud to make deposits to DUCA. I spoke to them yesterday, needed to confirm my address in BC, and had no problems inquiring about the 3.15% rate, as well I can make a deposit and receive the promotional rate in new deposits made today.

Is the policy change to new customers only?

March 1, 2018
2:38 pm
tc
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I believe it only applies to new customers .
If you already have an account opened before the bylaws changed,then you should be fine.

March 1, 2018
3:55 pm
Doug
British Columbia, Canada
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tcharger67 said
just for curiousity sake. Why am I still aloud to make deposits to DUCA. I spoke to them yesterday, needed to confirm my address in BC, and had no problems inquiring about the 3.15% rate, as well I can make a deposit and receive the promotional rate in new deposits made today.

Is the policy change to new customers only?  

Yes, if DUCA's Board changed their bylaws, it would have to have been applicable to new members only. 🙂

I'll leave it in the "free chequing" and "services" chart for now, only because I've got First West Credit Union and First Calgary Financial in the "free chequing chart" that are only available to B.C. and Alberta residents. That said, I'll update that they're only available to Ontario residents.

Cheers,
Doug

March 1, 2018
8:09 pm
Saver-Mom
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Righto Loonie, they haven’t booted me back to the PQ yet!
This will improve the competition!

March 1, 2018
8:25 pm
AlainJF
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Reply moved to the other DUCA @ 3.15% discussion.

March 2, 2018
9:10 am
Doug
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Saver-Mom said
... This will improve the competition!  

If you mean help out those smaller CUs and FIs trying to gain share to compete, probably, but it'll be at the margins, at best. DUCA was not a major player outside of Ontario, especially after the closure of that Zenbanx partnership, despite the mentions they get on these forums. 🙂

Cheers,
Doug

March 2, 2018
12:01 pm
Saver-Mom
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Actually I was hoping it would encourage Tang to improve upon their 2.5% offer!

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