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Tangerine cash back MasterCard
October 7, 2015
2:55 pm
Loonie
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Thanks for thinking this through, djino.

I want to know how this works out so I have arbitrarily chosen, as an example, the figures you have given us for Oct. 5, to see how this might work for a purchase. I didn't follow how you came up with the percentage differences in the rates, so I have done it in a way that makes sense to me.

Assume a purchase of $100.US and rounding off to dollars and cents.

(1) Amazon Visa at 1% rebate rate
$100.US = $132.72 Cdn.
1% rebate on $132.72 = $1.33Cdn
Forex fee = 0.
Net return = rebate - forex = $1.33Cdn - 0 = $1.33Cdn.

(2) Tangerine MC at 2% rebate rate
$100.US = $131.33 Cdn.
2% rebate on $131.33 = $2.63 Cdn.
Forex fee = 1.5% x 131.33 = $1.97
Net return = rebate - forex = $2.63 - $1.97 = $0.66Cdn.

Therefore, in this example, one would do better with the Amazon Visa card.

Amazon Visa advantage:
Amazon Visa net return - Tang MC net return =
$1.33 - $0.66 = $0.67 Cdn per $100 US (+/- $132 Cdn) spent.
$0.67 / $132 x 100 = approx. 0.5%

If I have miscalculated, please let me know.

The question remains as to what the Amex exchange rate is, as they give 1.25% rebate on everything on their "Simply Cash" no-fee card but I think they do charge 2.5% Forex? Can anyone confirm?

October 7, 2015
11:38 pm
Loonie
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I just noticed that the "Purchase Assurance" with the Tangerine card, which is loss/theft/damage x 90 days, is "secondary" insurance. You must first claim on your own home insurance, and they will cover the remainder. This is really only useful for people who do not have any home insurance. For most purchases, you'd be ill-advised to make a claim on your house insurance for one purchase, because it would count against your record. The insurance companies will drop people who have more claims than the company wants to see.

What you want on credit card insurance policies is always "primary" insurance. This means the first claim goes to the credit card company, does not affect your home insurance. You would then only apply to home insurance if it was a very significant loss and the credit card didn't cover it.

You should look for the same thing with the Collision/Loss/Damage waivers on car rentals. This often requires reading the entire policy in order to find the fine print. Many CC businesses won't make the policies available until AFTER you sign up, which is a bad sign. You should definitely insist on seeing the entire policies before agreeing to pay for a CC. Even for a free card, you should be able to see the policies first, because who wants to have a credit check on their record for a card they don't really want?

From what I have seen, only a minority of cards offer primary insurance, but it can be worth paying for if you really want that insurance.

October 8, 2015
4:15 am
djino
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Loonie said

Thanks for thinking this through, djino.

I want to know how this works out so I have arbitrarily chosen, as an example, the figures you have given us for Oct. 5, to see how this might work for a purchase. I didn't follow how you came up with the percentage differences in the rates, so I have done it in a way that makes sense to me.

Assume a purchase of $100.US and rounding off to dollars and cents.

(1) Amazon Visa at 1% rebate rate
$100.US = $132.72 Cdn.
1% rebate on $132.72 = $1.33Cdn
Forex fee = 0.
Net return = rebate - forex = $1.33Cdn - 0 = $1.33Cdn.

(2) Tangerine MC at 2% rebate rate
$100.US = $131.33 Cdn.
2% rebate on $131.33 = $2.63 Cdn.
Forex fee = 1.5% x 131.33 = $1.97
Net return = rebate - forex = $2.63 - $1.97 = $0.66Cdn.

Therefore, in this example, one would do better with the Amazon Visa card.

Amazon Visa advantage:
Amazon Visa net return - Tang MC net return =
$1.33 - $0.66 = $0.67 Cdn per $100 US (+/- $132 Cdn) spent.
$0.67 / $132 x 100 = approx. 0.5%

If I have miscalculated, please let me know.

The question remains as to what the Amex exchange rate is, as they give 1.25% rebate on everything on their "Simply Cash" no-fee card but I think they do charge 2.5% Forex? Can anyone confirm?

Yes you have miscalculated. When Tangerine calculates the 2% Bonus, it would be on the Canadian Value (After the Forex Fee is applied). I'll use your $100 USD example and calculate the final total (including the Cashback).

Amazon Chase purchase $100USD October 5th:
- $100USD * 1.327267 = $132.73 CAD
- Amazon Provides 1% Cashback. $132.73 * 0.01 = $1.33
- $132.73 - $1.33 = $131.40

So $100 USD purchased on the Amazon card would result in $131.40 after conversion minus cashback.

---

Tangerine Bonus Category purchase of $100USD October 5th:
- $100USD * 1.3133 = $131.33 CAD
- $131.33CAD * 1.015(Forex Fee) = $133.30 CAD
- Tangerine Provides 2% Cashback. $133.30 * 0.02 = $2.67
- $133.30 - $2.67 = $130.63 CAD

So $100 USD purchased on the Tangerine card on a Bonus category item would result in $130.63 after conversion minus cashback.

---

Result:
- $100USD = $131.40CAD With Amazon
- $100USD = $130.63CAD with Tangerine (If on Bonus Purchase)

October 8, 2015
4:27 am
djino
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Loonie said

I just noticed that the "Purchase Assurance" with the Tangerine card, which is loss/theft/damage x 90 days, is "secondary" insurance. You must first claim on your own home insurance, and they will cover the remainder. This is really only useful for people who do not have any home insurance. For most purchases, you'd be ill-advised to make a claim on your house insurance for one purchase, because it would count against your record. The insurance companies will drop people who have more claims than the company wants to see.

What you want on credit card insurance policies is always "primary" insurance. This means the first claim goes to the credit card company, does not affect your home insurance. You would then only apply to home insurance if it was a very significant loss and the credit card didn't cover it.

You should look for the same thing with the Collision/Loss/Damage waivers on car rentals. This often requires reading the entire policy in order to find the fine print. Many CC businesses won't make the policies available until AFTER you sign up, which is a bad sign. You should definitely insist on seeing the entire policies before agreeing to pay for a CC. Even for a free card, you should be able to see the policies first, because who wants to have a credit check on their record for a card they don't really want?

From what I have seen, only a minority of cards offer primary insurance, but it can be worth paying for if you really want that insurance.

A couple of things to comment on concerning this. As you mention MOST credit cards consider this a secondary insurance (to ones home insurance if it exists) and perhaps only a few consider it primary.

But even with it being secondary, MOST credit card issuers do not expect you to make a claim through your home insurance first, they will just LIMIT the reimbursement to the maximum of your home insurance's deductible.

When you want to make a claim under Purchase Assurance (due to theft/lost/damage of purchased item purchased under 90 Days ago), you will have to do the following for MOST credit cards:
- Call Credit Card Insurance department to tell them about it
- Complete Online Claims Form
- Submit Store Receipt
- Submit Credit Card Invoice
- Submit Home Insurance Policy Document (If you do not have home insurance, then you will likely be requested to have a laywer sign a notarized document indicating you do not have home Insurance)
- If item was lost/theft, you may need to provide a police report
- If item is damaged, you will need to submit a photo of it in your possession
- If item is damaged, you will need to include an estimate of repairs or evidence that its not repairable

The credit card insurance claims department should then submit you a cheque in the weeks following to reimburse you the amount of the repair or cost of item up to the max of your home insurance's deductible (if applicable).

djino

October 8, 2015
7:51 am
jgclghrn
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djino said

Tangerine Bonus Category purchase of $100USD October 5th:
- $100USD * 1.3133 = $131.33 CAD
- $131.33CAD * 1.015(Forex Fee) = $133.30 CAD
- Tangerine Provides 2% Cashback. $133.30 * 0.02 = $2.67
- $133.30 - $2.67 = $130.63 CAD

So $100 USD purchased on the Tangerine card on a Bonus category item would result in $130.63 after conversion minus cashback.

---

Result:
- $100USD = $131.40CAD With Amazon
- $100USD = $130.63CAD with Tangerine (If on Bonus Purchase)

Djino, I agree you need to include the apparent foreign exchange difference to calculate the total cost. However, I didn't think cash back was usually given for such things as interest charges or fees like the 1.5% exchange commission (although it only results in a small difference to your results). I couldn't find that information on the Tangerine site. Does Tangerine give you 2% back on the commission?

October 8, 2015
9:06 am
djino
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jgclghrn said

djino said

Tangerine Bonus Category purchase of $100USD October 5th:
- $100USD * 1.3133 = $131.33 CAD
- $131.33CAD * 1.015(Forex Fee) = $133.30 CAD
- Tangerine Provides 2% Cashback. $133.30 * 0.02 = $2.67
- $133.30 - $2.67 = $130.63 CAD

So $100 USD purchased on the Tangerine card on a Bonus category item would result in $130.63 after conversion minus cashback.

---

Result:
- $100USD = $131.40CAD With Amazon
- $100USD = $130.63CAD with Tangerine (If on Bonus Purchase)

Djino, I agree you need to include the apparent foreign exchange difference to calculate the total cost. However, I didn't think cash back was usually given for such things as interest charges or fees like the 1.5% exchange commission (although it only results in a small difference to your results). I couldn't find that information on the Tangerine site. Does Tangerine give you 2% back on the commission?

I could look it up, but my assumption is that they do. When I use my MBNA RWE 2% card in the U.S., the 2% was always calculated on the converted Canadian Funds (which would include the 2.5% Forex Fee). My assumption is that all cards would do the same (apply the cashback on the Canadian Value, which would be after all Forex fees have been applied). Unless you have evidence to show otherwise.

I guess I'll see when I apply/receive the card, try it out and let you know.

djino

October 8, 2015
12:23 pm
Loonie
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Thanks for the correction. I agree with the recalculation.
I had forgotten to factor in the difference in exchange rates in my final calculations.
This means that in this case the Tangerine CC deal is about 1% better than the Amazon Chase one.

I would expect the rebate to be based on whatever the line item cost was on the statement, which is normally expressed in Cdn$ on credit card statements inclusive of fee. Presumably this includes Forex fee. In the past I had assumed this was in part because they wanted to hide the fact that there was this exorbitant fee. However, Tangerine is being a little bit more public about it, so it is possible they will handle it differently.

October 8, 2015
12:30 pm
Loonie
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Thanks for the info on how the claims process works. I have never made a claim, although my CC has primary insurance.

You are still better off though, to have primary insurance. If, for example, you have $1000 deductible, and buy a $2000 TV, and it is damanged/lost/stolen, you would still likely lose $1000 with secondary CC insurance because it would be unwise to use your house insurance for such a relatively small claim.
Similarly, if you buy an electronic gadget for $400, the credit card with secondary insurance would not reimburse for that at all as it would be less than the deductible, and neither would you be wise to claim it on home insurance. I don't think there is such a thing as deductibles under $500 any more, and, if there were, you would be paying handsomely for them.

Obviously secondary insurance is a lot cheaper for the credit card companies to offer, as there will be far fewer claims. Most purchases are probably less than the deductible on home policies, so it costs them nothing and there would be no processing costs.

Here's another tidbit I picked up after numerous phone call inquiries: If you buy a cell phone that is part of a contract, it will not be covered by credit card insurance at all because you did not pay for the phone in full in the beginning. In other words, the cost of your phone does not appear as an item on your credit card bill, so not covered.

Edits made as I thought of more things.

October 8, 2015
12:41 pm
djino
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Loonie said

Thanks for the info on how the claims process works. I have never made a claim, although my CC has primary insurance.

You are still better off though, to have primary insurance. If, for example, you have $1000 deductible, and buy a $2000 TV, and it is damanged/lost/stolen, you would still likely lose $1000 with secondary CC insurance because it would be unwise to use your house insurance for such a relatively small claim.

Obviously secondary insurance is a lot cheaper for the credit card companies to offer, as there will be far fewer claims. Most purchases are probably less than the deductible on home policies.

Well if the $2000 TV was lost/stolen , then I'm sure there are likely other items in your house that are in the same state lol, which would likely make it a big claim that one should for sure claim under their home insurance in addition to their credit card insurance to get the deductible reimbursed.

If the $2000 TV is simply damaged in some way (within its first 90 days), then its likely you could get it repaired for an amount that is much under $2000. So it is likely you can be reimbursed 100% or at least very close to it.

djino

October 8, 2015
12:42 pm
Loonie
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TV (or any new purchase) could be stolen from your car, and often is, so it would be a solitary claim.

October 8, 2015
12:46 pm
djino
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Loonie said

TV (or any new purchase) could be stolen from your car, and often is, so it would be a solitary claim.

Would that not be a claim through your auto insurance which likely would include broken windows and other damages?

Does this even happen often? A new TV purchased left in a car?

djino

October 8, 2015
12:51 pm
Loonie
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No, it's not an auto insurance claim. I did have an experience with that many years ago, before insurance companies became so picky about renewals. Would never claim it again.

Yes, it certainly does happen, especially around Christmas time. I guarantee there will be warnings about it from the police during the Christmas season again this year. The specifics of the TV are not important. It could be something else. Maybe you left your laptop in the back seat where it could be seen and draw attention. Sh*t happens.

The point is that primary insurance is better than secondary insurance. I don't think anyone can deny that, however much they think they won't need it.

October 8, 2015
12:54 pm
djino
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Loonie said

No, it's not an auto insurance claim. I did have an experience with that many years ago, before insurance companies became so picky about renewals. Would never claim it again.

Yes, it certainly does happen, especially around Christmas time. I guarantee there will be warnings about it from the police during the Christmas season again this year. The specifics of the TV are not important. It could be something else.

The point is that primary insurance is better than secondary insurance. I don't think anyone can deny that, however much they think they won't need it.

Oh for sure, I completely agree. But I believe the scenarios you mentioned would be pretty rare (i.e., low risk) that one should not be shopping for a credit card product specifically based on the fact that the Purchase Assurance is primary or secondary.

If it were somewhat important, I'd rather simply increase my Home Insurance deductible . You'd likely be better off as you'd likely be choosing a bad credit card product involving fees just to get that type of insurance to be primary.

djino

October 8, 2015
1:00 pm
Loonie
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The possibility of ANY incident of theft/loss/damage is probably low risk for most people.

People can make their own decisions about which criteria they value in choosing a credit card. I am merely pointing out factors that may not be immediately obvious. For some people, this insurance is really important, so they should know what they're getting.

It may also be helpful in choosing between two cards which otherwise offer very similar benefits.

October 8, 2015
1:03 pm
djino
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Loonie said

The possibility of ANY incident of theft/loss/damage is probably low risk for most people.

People can make their own decisions about which criteria they value in choosing a credit card. I am merely pointing out factors that may not be immediately obvious. For some people, this insurance is really important, so they should know what they're getting.

It may also be helpful in choosing between two cards which otherwise offer very similar benefits.

I can agree with that.

But I find the majority of credit card users do not even know that this type of insurance exists or at the very least have never thought to make a claim against it.

I've only done it once in my life myself.

djino

October 8, 2015
1:07 pm
Loonie
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Yes, that's why it's a good perq for CC companies to offer - very few people use it, but it looks good on paper (especially if you never read the policy) when they are trying to get your business!sf-wink

October 8, 2015
1:12 pm
Loonie
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I agree that most people would be better off to increase their deductible on their home policy (and, if it is important to them, spend money on a better credit card's annual fee to get primary insurance, which will likely still be cheaper than cost of lower deductible.)

Someone I used to know who worked at a bank in their insurance department said that in her opinion you shouldn't claim on house insurance unless it's a major incident like a fire. According to her, the insurance company would cut you off after 3 or 4 claims. If they were smallish claims, they still counted, so why bother, and why pay for something you can't really use like a low deductible?

October 8, 2015
1:16 pm
djino
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Loonie said

I agree that most people would be better off to increase their deductible on their home policy.
Someone I used to know who worked at a bank in their insurance department said that in her opinion you shouldn't claim on house insurance unless it's a major incident like a fire. According to her, the insurance company would cut you off after 3 or 4 claims. If they were smallish claims, they still counted, so why bother, and why pay for something you can't really use like a low deductible?

Totally agree and that's good advice. I should review my home insurance policy and make some changes. :)

djino

October 8, 2015
1:40 pm
Loonie
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Same goes for auto insurance., although I think more people may be aware of this than are aware of house insurance issue.

If you have an old car that has little or no resale value, you should consider dropping the collision coverage as you won't be able to collect on it.

We dropped ours after 2 mechanics told us that although the vehicle has only about 110,000 km and is in good driving and body condition, they wouldn't give us a cent for it and didn't think we could get anything for it anywhere else either. The car is 11 years old. The car wasn't in need of major repairs, just too old.
When I called the insurance broker to advise them of our decision not to renew the collision, they seemed very surprised and asked why we would do that, even though they know perfectly well how old the car is and that most cars that age would have more mileage and be in worse shape. I told them what the mechanics had said and they had no response. This was their opportunity to give me a different argument, if one existed.
So, I conclude that a lot of people are probably wasting money on collision insurance as well as house insurance, as there are a lot of older cars on the road.

That was over a year ago. We are still driving the car, and it's still not costing much to keep it going even though we are not DIYers. When it goes, it goes, and the Kidney Foundation (or similar organization) will come and tow it away and sell it to the scrapyard and give us a tax receipt for scrap value.

October 8, 2015
1:50 pm
djino
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Those are some good points.

I am not at that point that I could get ride of collision. I have a 3.5 year old car (bought new in March 2012) that I am financing with Nissan. Car was $30K when purchased, so its still worth a lot today.

But the one thing I did remove just recently (this year when my insurance was renewed) that I had since day 1 was Gap insurance since I really only have a couple more years of financing before the car is paid off, the additional premium just didn't justify the risk that I'd get into an accident where my car would be written off.

Perhaps when my financing is complete, I may see what the true value of my vehicle is and decide at that time to drop collision.

I've even been considering raising my $250 deductible since I have only been 1 accident that was not my fault (someone hit my parked car which resulted in my front passenger door being replaced. cost insurance $1800).

djino

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