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Tangerine Warning
October 4, 2017
9:54 am
Doug
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Joe said
you can pull 100k out of tangerine at a time, from another bank....you can do this as many times as you want, one after the other.  

They can't restrict withdrawals (on fully cleared and available funds) initiated from other banks' online banking interfaces. That's an illegal capital control, normally reserved for the country's central bank. They can place maximum balance limitations like EQ Bank. They can place withdrawal limits on transfers in/out initiated from within Tangerine and even charge an NSF fee on scheduled internal Tangerine transactions, though that's pretty shady and few FIs do this.

I'd like more details here:

1. Were the funds free and clear?

2. Was the transfer initiated from within Tangerine or from the other FI's online banking system?

3. If possible, can screenshot(s) be supplied?

Cheers,
Doug

October 4, 2017
10:02 am
Doug
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To some people's analysis of Tangerine's T&C, which is overly vague, it's still an illegal capital control, if true.

The OP mentions in a subsequent post that a Tangerine CSR confirmed it was OK to make the withdrawal. Did the withdrawal from within Tangerine or from within DUCA? If from with DUCA, did the OP independently confirm, ideally with screenshot, that there were no holds in place?

Banks cannot, nor should they, as far as I understand, restrict withdrawals on cleared funds via cheque or cheque-like instruments (i.e., bank draft from Tangerine or Electronic Funds Transfer sourced from elsewhere of Tangerine). No bank or credit union does this. None. If Tangerine is doing this, we need proof and, if it can be supplied, should prompt a massive letter writing campaign to OSFI, FCAC, OBSI, your MP, Ms. Rideout (with Tangerine), Mr. McPhedran (at Scotiabank), Mr. O'Sullivan (also with Scotiabank) and Mr. Porter (also with Scotiabank). Tangerine should also be brought up on federal charges. However, proof needs to happen first before I'd support that. 🙁

Cheers,
Doug

October 4, 2017
10:09 am
Doug
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Possibly, Rick, it could be DUCA's limit but if he tried to pull those funds from Tangerine and exceeded his transfer-in limit, DUCA would've prohibited the transaction, one would think, either by saying it's over the per-transaction limit or over the daily or weekly limits.

I can't find their limits in place, which is frustrating, and I'm not going to read through their whole T&C. I think the problem could still be Tangerine's but we need further details from the OP, ideally with proof.

Cheers,
Doug

October 4, 2017
10:42 am
Rick
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OP stated he cleared the transfer through Tang in advance but initiated a push from Duca. Probably would have avoided the grief all together if he just did a pull from Tang. That way their 25K limit wouldn't apply, and, I'm betting, the 50K limit from Duca wouldn't apply either. I'm not sure why the trf would have made it to Tang in the first place. He should never have been allowed to set up an EFT that violated their limits. That would be an issue I'd take up with Duca. I'm getting a bitter taste in my mouth defending Tang.
sf-embarassed

October 4, 2017
10:57 am
tcharger67
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Doug,
the funds were cleared, according to tangerine online account at the time

the transfer was initiated from duca, at the time i was speaking with tangerine csr

screen shots cannot be supplied, as i didnt feel a necessity to. I have since been saving all conversations

I initiated the same transfers again in the same method as before, and all funds have transfered to duca

October 4, 2017
11:59 am
Rick
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Going Occam's razor on this one. OP stated in post 11 that "the maximum is 50k daily, 200k weekly" according to Duca. He then initiated 2 transfers of 100k each from Duca to Tang, either of which would have violated the daily maximum twice over, according to him. I'd venture to say that he wouldn't have gotten a NSF charge at Tang if he didn't pre-authorize the transfer with them, apparently while he was on line initiating the transfer from Duca at the same time. That, out of everything, seems the oddest. I prefer to just do the transfer and raise holy hell after it fails. Sure, the same transactions have been successfully transferred since then, but that was after talking directly to Duca, so no surprise there. Since I have in the past, and others more recently, pulled hundreds of thousands at once into Tang using the pull method, something doesn't ring true... there is either more to this story than we are aware of, someone at either institution screwed up, or the customer erred. Since the max limit was violated, I'm going with the customer. No offense. I've done far worse, I think we all have.
PS; I believe they CAN restrict free and clear funds using the limits they set out in the T&C. They can do anything they want as long as you check the little box and agree to the T&C. If you don't like them...don't bank there.

October 4, 2017
12:48 pm
rfdm4g4g9
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Don't want to go through the same thing, OP went through.

Does anyone here have a SCOTIA bank account ?

Has anyone pulled a large amount from Scotia into Tangerine, without any issues or NSF.

I have $ 316,000 sitting in it. Its linked to my Tangerine Savings account.
I am PULLING the money from Tangerine, so the entire $ 316,000 from Scotia will come into Tangerine. I want to withdraw in 1 day.

I don't mind doing splitting the transaction like 100,000 + 100,000 + 100,000 + 16,000 if they have a per transaction limit. Don't mind doing 4 different transactions on the same day.

Does Scotia have a daily withdrawal limit of $ 100,000 or something even if I am Pulling from Tangerine & NOT pushing from Scotia.

I don't want NSF charges on both sides if there is a limit from Scotia's side, even if its being PULLED from Tangerine..

October 4, 2017
3:11 pm
Doug
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Rick said
OP stated he cleared the transfer through Tang in advance but initiated a push from Duca. Probably would have avoided the grief all together if he just did a pull from Tang. That way their 25K limit wouldn't apply, and, I'm betting, the 50K limit from Duca wouldn't apply either. I'm not sure why the trf would have made it to Tang in the first place. He should never have been allowed to set up an EFT that violated their limits. That would be an issue I'd take up with Duca. I'm getting a bitter taste in my mouth defending Tang.
sf-embarassed  

I'm confused...if he "push"ed the funds to Tangerine from DUCA, why would there be a debit in his Tangerine account?

October 4, 2017
3:13 pm
Doug
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tcharger67 said
Doug,
the funds were cleared, according to tangerine online account at the time

the transfer was initiated from duca, at the time i was speaking with tangerine csr

screen shots cannot be supplied, as i didnt feel a necessity to. I have since been saving all conversations

I initiated the same transfers again in the same method as before, and all funds have transfered to duca  

Okay, thanks for the partial clarification: did you look at your account balance or did you go into the "account holds" information for the account?

Where did you initiate the transfer, from DUCA to DUCA ("pull") or from Tangerine to DUCA ("push")?

Cheers,
Doug

October 4, 2017
3:21 pm
Doug
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Rick said
Going Occam's razor on this one. OP stated in post 11 that "the maximum is 50k daily, 200k weekly" according to Duca. He then initiated 2 transfers of 100k each from Duca to Tang, either of which would have violated the daily maximum twice over, according to him. I'd venture to say that he wouldn't have gotten a NSF charge at Tang if he didn't pre-authorize the transfer with them, apparently while he was on line initiating the transfer from Duca at the same time. That, out of everything, seems the oddest. I prefer to just do the transfer and raise holy hell after it fails. Sure, the same transactions have been successfully transferred since then, but that was after talking directly to Duca, so no surprise there. Since I have in the past, and others more recently, pulled hundreds of thousands at once into Tang using the pull method, something doesn't ring true... there is either more to this story than we are aware of, someone at either institution screwed up, or the customer erred. Since the max limit was violated, I'm going with the customer. No offense. I've done far worse, I think we all have.
PS; I believe they CAN restrict free and clear funds using the limits they set out in the T&C. They can do anything they want as long as you check the little box and agree to the T&C. If you don't like them...don't bank there.  

Thanks for the clarification, Rick. It sounds to me like a DUCA error that allowed him to initiate subsequent "pulls" from Tangerine to DUCA that exceeded his limit. I'd be going to both Tangerine and DUCA to get fees reversed and any negative narratives removed from my profile, if that's what happened.

As for a bank restricting cheque or EFT debits that are externally sourced, they have to have a damn good reason to do this. Damn good reasons include:
* a balance block on the account due to a requirement to pay the Canada Revenue Agency or Family Maintenance Enforcement Program. Garnishees from civil court orders can happen but, in my experience with HSBC, banks are often quite reticent to act on these without additional research. also, this should still show up as funds not available or as a blocked balance and, if not, the bank should be fixing this
* Forged/fraudulent endorsement (typically only for cheques for large value amounts, often above $5000 or $10,000 as banks don't check signatures on cheques lower than those thresholds)

That's pretty much it. If they're saying they can do otherwise for "other reasons," their T&C is unlawful and would likely be challenged successfully in court, but that's expensive. So, they get away with shoving these unlawful T&Cs at us. 😉

Cheers,
Doug

October 4, 2017
3:24 pm
Doug
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rfdm4g4g9 said
Don't want to go through the same thing, OP went through.

Does anyone here have a SCOTIA bank account ?

Has anyone pulled a large amount from Scotia into Tangerine, without any issues or NSF.

I have $ 316,000 sitting in it. Its linked to my Tangerine Savings account.
I am PULLING the money from Tangerine, so the entire $ 316,000 from Scotia will come into Tangerine. I want to withdraw in 1 day.

I don't mind doing splitting the transaction like 100,000 + 100,000 + 100,000 + 16,000 if they have a per transaction limit. Don't mind doing 4 different transactions on the same day.

Does Scotia have a daily withdrawal limit of $ 100,000 or something even if I am Pulling from Tangerine & NOT pushing from Scotia.

I don't want NSF charges on both sides if there is a limit from Scotia's side, even if its being PULLED from Tangerine..  

I'm not sure of Scotia's limits off hand but you're asking the right questions. I'd call them and ask what their daily, weekly and per-transaction limits are for EFT transfers of funds from a linked bank account in your own name.

The limits are getting really low across the board and it needs to change. Implicity has a $50,000 inbound, per-transaction limit on transfers from another FI (from within Implicity, i.e. a "pull" transaction). Thankfully, they have a $200,000 weekly limit so I was able to initiate several transactions on the same day but I'd rather just do one. 😉

Cheers,
Doug

October 4, 2017
11:25 pm
Norman1
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Rick said
OP stated he cleared the transfer through Tang in advance but initiated a push from Duca. Probably would have avoided the grief all together if he just did a pull from Tang. That way their 25K limit wouldn't apply, and, I'm betting, the 50K limit from Duca wouldn't apply either. I'm not sure why the trf would have made it to Tang in the first place. He should never have been allowed to set up an EFT that violated their limits. That would be an issue I'd take up with Duca. I'm getting a bitter taste in my mouth defending Tang.
sf-embarassed  

We are getting the ends mixed up.

OP did a pull at DUCA to pull money from Tangerine Bank to DUCA.

I think $50K per day/$200K per week are DUCA's withdrawal limits for pushing money out of DUCA. I don't think those are DUCA's limits for pulling money into DUCA at DUCA. That's why the PAD's were transmitted by DUCA and received by Tangerine Bank.

For some reason, the PAD's were subsequently returned by Tangerine Bank to DUCA with the return reason as NSF.

October 5, 2017
8:08 am
Rick
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Norman1 said
OP did a pull at DUCA to pull money from Tangerine Bank to DUCA.

Money was going to Tang, not Duca, That IS a push... you can't "pull" money from both ends. He did a push from Duca but got permission (????) from a Tang CSR first. Hence Duca's limits would apply.

tcharger67 said

I was given permission by tangerines CSR Sept 28 to make the transfer via ducas online banking site, than at the same time I withdrew 100,000 twice via duca financial.

I'm sure the Tang CSR was more than happy to allow him to deposit any amount he wanted from Duca. 200K?? Sure!!! Bring it on over!! Tang CSR granted permission he didn't have the authority to grant.

October 5, 2017
9:09 am
Norman1
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Rick said

Norman1 said
OP did a pull at DUCA to pull money from Tangerine Bank to DUCA.

Money was going to Tang, not Duca, That IS a push... you can't "pull" money from both ends. He did a push from Duca but got permission (????) from a Tang CSR first. Hence Duca's limits would apply.

I thought the money was going from Tangerine to DUCA. So, it was a pull done at DUCA:sf-confused

tcharger67 said
Well guys I decided to switch my savings into Duca financial last week. Unfortunately I got a nasty awakening when I checked my Tangerine Account today
2 No sufficient funds charges on my tangerine... Why because the two withdrawls had exceeded their daily withdrawl limits.

How could one end up with NSF's at both ends on a push? Receiving end would never return a direct deposit credit as NSF.

October 5, 2017
11:32 am
Rick
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Norman1 said
How could one end up with NSF's at both ends on a push? Receiving end would never return a direct deposit credit as NSF.  

I think thats why funds are held for a week at the receiving institution. Just in case there's an issue...like this instance. If that is what actually happened, Duca should not have allowed the transfer to be set up. Looks like they put it through, Tang received it, then Duca pulled it back for violating the limits and both banks charged him NSF fees. Still don't understand why he got permission from Tang to push funds out of Duca. I think that's the fly in this ointment.

October 5, 2017
12:28 pm
tcharger67
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Just to clarify the pulls were using ducas site. They were 100k withdrawls x 2. I spoke with duca as I made the transfer, their CSR informed me that they cannot make transfers above 100k each, max 200k daily and 2m weekly.
Hence 100k x2.

The following day I also moved 48,000. This was the only transaction to be approved

October 5, 2017
2:21 pm
Rick
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tcharger67 said
Just to clarify the pulls were using ducas site. They were 100k withdrawls x 2. I spoke with duca as I made the transfer, their CSR informed me that they cannot make transfers above 100k each, max 200k daily and 2m weekly.
Hence 100k x2.

The following day I also moved 48,000. This was the only transaction to be approved  

Thanx for clarifying again. Can you please clarify one more thing for me? In your original post you said:

tcharger67 said
When I asked DUCA about withdrawls, they were very clear, that the maximum is 50k daily, 200k weekly. Only way around that is with a mailed bank draft. DUCA was clear and honest. I like that.

I can't see that in your posts anymore, (honestly I didn't look too hard), so what are the actual daily/weekly limits @ Duca? Thanx! Sorry you hard such a hard time. Hope all your charges get reversed.

October 5, 2017
2:35 pm
Doug
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I'm totally confused.

To the OP: can you restate what you did following the correct lingo? Be sure to include if you made more than one transaction request that received a confirmation number. Several forum users may be confused and it's causing confusion for me. 🙂

A push involves transferring money to a given institution from that sending institution's online banking interface.

A pull involves transferring money from another institution from the receiving institution's online banking interface.

"Push" transactions appear as direct deposits at the receiving institution and cannot be returned except for a very time-limited window for reason code "not authorized". That window is typically 7 days.

"Pull" transactions appear as pre-authorized debits at the sending institution and can be returned for a variety of reason codes (next day, at the bank request) similar to cheques (they clear through Payments Canada's ACSS system); however, for pre-authorized debits ending in FTD (HSBC Bank Canada and a limited number of FIs display this information) are considered "fund transfer" debits and so you agree to a special agreement whereby they can only be returned at your request in only one or two reasons within 90 days and even then, it's challenging.

Cheers,
Doug

October 5, 2017
2:47 pm
Doug
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tcharger67 said
Just to clarify the pulls were using ducas site. They were 100k withdrawls x 2. I spoke with duca as I made the transfer, their CSR informed me that they cannot make transfers above 100k each, max 200k daily and 2m weekly.
Hence 100k x2.

The following day I also moved 48,000. This was the only transaction to be approved  

That's what I thought. Were funds held on Tangerine end? If so, how much? No transfers made on Tangerine end that got a confirmation number, before or after speaking to Tangerine CSR?

If that's correct, then there's two errors here:
* DUCA's system incorrectly allowed a transfer to go through that apparently exceeded the client's daily, per-transaction and/or weekly limits. It should not have taken place. They should reimburse any NSF fees on their end. Phone them again, speak with a supervisor, escalate as appropriate.
* Tangerine made an error in incorrectly returning the transactions when funds were available. While they can limit the amount "push"ed out of Tangerine or "pull"ed into Tangerine from elsewhere, they cannot, or at least should not, limit withdrawals by transaction amounts that are either externally-initiated or written as a Tangerine cheque. They just can't. Simple as that.

Barring screenshot proof, I'm not going to call for a swift exit from Tangerine but I would put them "on watch" and encourage anyone else experiencing the same issue to report it here (or at least in another thread on these forums), with screenshots.

To the OP: Tangerine should be reversing NSF fees as well, though it sounds like they did. Still, you need to find out why the transactions were returned to DUCA and let us know. Escalate first to the Contact Centre Supervisor, then to the Complaints Office, then to Brenda Rideout (CEO and President of Tangerine Bank) and finally to the Tangerine Ombudsman and, ideally, to the OBSI as well. Attach any and all documentation, dates, transaction amounts, sequence of events, chat logs or personal notes. Demand, in a friendly way, that they provide proof that no blocks or restrictions were on your account and/or that they don't remain on there. Ensure any negative history narratives are removed from the account.

Hope that helps,
Doug

October 5, 2017
2:48 pm
JenE
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Totally confused too.sf-surprised

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