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Tangerine Warning
September 30, 2017
11:38 am
tcharger67
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Well guys I decided to switch my savings into Duca financial last week. Unfortunately I got a nasty awakening when I checked my Tangerine Account today
2 No sufficient funds charges on my tangerine... Why because the two withdrawls had exceeded their daily withdrawl limits.

Now there is a back story to this. When I had opened my accounts with Tangerine, I asked them if it would be possible to move more than the daily withdrawl limit, and was informed that yes, it would be no problem, as long as Tangerine had been informed.
So last week, i got onto tangerines chat, and spoke to the rep, he informed me the transactions each at 100,000 would be no problem, and that i could move the funds to Duca.
Guess what happened today. 2x 40.00 NSF funds at Tangerine, and 2 NSF charges at Duca.
I just spent over an hour on the phone with tangerine, spoke to 3 different individuals, and apparently the chat history was *not available* and could only show that I had spoken to someone on the day of the transaction. further more, only Tangerine will refund their two NSF 40.00$ transactions, not DUCAs

I have never had a bank make me so unbelivably frustrated and i will never do business with them again.
Hope you guys get dont make the same mistake, and always keep your records.

September 30, 2017
2:11 pm
Rick
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May be moving it all out of Tang next week. Did you try to push the funds out of Tang or pull them from Duca? I am under the impression that limits did not apply when pulling out of Tang from another FI.
This is all I could find after searching their website for about an hour:

Transactions and/or balances may be limited in dollar amounts, or otherwise as may be determined by us, and such limits may be changed in our sole discretion without notice to you. If we allow your account to accumulate a negative balance, we may charge fluctuating interest rates without notifying you until the total negative balance and applicable interest is repaid. We may change the requirements for and manner of transferring funds into and out of your Account at any time.

Basically, they can do whatever they want. Their whole T&C seems to focus on what YOU have to notify them of and what they DON"T have to notify you about. Kinda one sided. So I phoned and had a nice chat with a CSR (same name as The Friendly Giant's giraffe) that explained that you can only transfer out 10K per day from Tang to prevent someone with unauthorized access from stealing your money. .So I asked what about if I go to one of my linked accounts and initiate a trf of, say, 50K out of Tang to my linked FI.
He said they will honour EFT's of up to 2 million initiated from the other FI, because they have a relationship with other FI's. Guess not their problem if someone with unauthorized access does a pull from Tang. Just to clarify, I said, I can only move 10K per day by initiating online from Tang, but I can move up to 2 mil if I initiate from the other FI. He confirmed again, but pointed out that I can move larger sums from Tang by phone, but not online. So, to answer my own question, tcharger67, you did a push from Tang?

September 30, 2017
3:49 pm
davidgeorge
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How much is the Tangerine's daily withdrawal (to another FI) limit for its savings account?

September 30, 2017
5:15 pm
Joe
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you can pull 100k out of tangerine at a time, from another bank....you can do this as many times as you want, one after the other.

September 30, 2017
6:56 pm
tcharger67
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Rick said
May be moving it all out of Tang next week. Did you try to push the funds out of Tang or pull them from Duca? I am under the impression that limits did not apply when pulling out of Tang from another FI.
This is all I could find after searching their website for about an hour:

Transactions and/or balances may be limited in dollar amounts, or otherwise as may be determined by us, and such limits may be changed in our sole discretion without notice to you. If we allow your account to accumulate a negative balance, we may charge fluctuating interest rates without notifying you until the total negative balance and applicable interest is repaid. We may change the requirements for and manner of transferring funds into and out of your Account at any time.

Basically, they can do whatever they want. Their whole T&C seems to focus on what YOU have to notify them of and what they DON"T have to notify you about. Kinda one sided. So I phoned and had a nice chat with a CSR (same name as The Friendly Giant's giraffe) that explained that you can only transfer out 10K per day from Tang to prevent someone with unauthorized access from stealing your money. .So I asked what about if I go to one of my linked accounts and initiate a trf of, say, 50K out of Tang to my linked FI.
He said they will honour EFT's of up to 2 million initiated from the other FI, because they have a relationship with other FI's. Guess not their problem if someone with unauthorized access does a pull from Tang. Just to clarify, I said, I can only move 10K per day by initiating online from Tang, but I can move up to 2 mil if I initiate from the other FI. He confirmed again, but pointed out that I can move larger sums from Tang by phone, but not online. So, to answer my own question, tcharger67, you did a push from Tang?  

I contacted tangerine via their chat messenger(must be logged in to access account data). Explained to tangerine I was told to contact by their CSR if I wanted to exceed the 10k. I was given permission by tangerines CSR Sept 28 to make the transfer via ducas online banking site, than at the same time I withdrew 100,000 twice via duca financial. Today I have 2 NSF charges in tangerine.

September 30, 2017
8:15 pm
Norman1
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tcharger67 said

I contacted tangerine via their chat messenger(must be logged in to access account data). Explained to tangerine I was told to contact by their CSR if I wanted to exceed the 10k. I was given permission by tangerines CSR Sept 28 to make the transfer via ducas online banking site, than at the same time I withdrew 100,000 twice via duca financial. Today I have 2 NSF charges in tangerine.  

That's very strange! If one had $200,000 in a Tangerine account, then it would be quite misleading for Tangerine Bank to return two $100,000 pre-authorized debits from DUCA with the reason code NSF. sf-confused

On the DUCA side, is there an indication what the reason was for the returned transactions? It is usually a three-digit code starting with 9 or a three-letter code like NSF.

Also, not sure why Tangerine Bank would have a $10,000 limit on pre-authorized debits (PAD's). PAD's are not final. Under clearing rules, the owner of the account that was debited can dispute the debit and have the transfer reversed.

September 30, 2017
11:17 pm
Loonie
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The lesson, for people who are going to maintain their Tang accounts, has to be to phone and get CSR to do your withdrawals, or move it all to chequing and write a cheque to yourself and deposit where you want. They can't NSF a transfer that they initiate. Also, screenshot all Chats that you might want to refer to later. Apparently Tang is just like Bell and a lot of other companies. They act like they don't have any records of what was said to you - which I don't believe.

Agree with Rick's analysis of T&C. Quite amazing that they would basically say there ARE no terms that you can rely on, as rules are a moving target.

I would ask them to reimburse the amount that DUCA docked as well as their own fee. I would also check credit rating and ask them to correct that if necessary.

It was only a few days go that we discovered there was a 25K limit on outbound funds, and now it's 10?? At least it was new to me. Pretty soon, it could be zero at this rate!sf-confused

I haven't had hardly any money there for quite a while despite good offer. I think spouse will be reducing amounts also after we discuss this new glitch. It makes me really uncomfortable to see them being so arbitrary. Business transfers godzillions of dollars every day and nobody bats an eye because business couldn't carry on if they didn't do this. We are entitled to equal treatment.
If what is happening is that they are admitting that their security isn't very reliable, then that's another matter, and it also isn't in their favour.
I hope this isn't a new trend, or I'll have to resort to hiding it under the mattress!

October 1, 2017
9:25 am
SG
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This sounds like they are getting wise that people are transferring out a few days before the promos end and they are cracking down on enforcing rules so people don't qualify for the next promo...

October 1, 2017
12:03 pm
Bill
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"We are entitled to equal treatment". Well, actually that is false - such entitlements do not exist, except perhaps in an imaginary world of our desires. We are "entitled" to expect a business to adhere to the law, that's it. And what we are entitled to do if a business's law-abiding practices don't please us is take our business elsewhere or, better yet, start up our own business so we can provide a model to the whole world of the proper, ethical way we think businesses ought to operate. But that would require a lot of work.

October 1, 2017
1:15 pm
Norman1
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Loonie said
The lesson, for people who are going to maintain their Tang accounts, has to be to phone and get CSR to do your withdrawals, or move it all to chequing and write a cheque to yourself and deposit where you want. They can't NSF a transfer that they initiate. …

Was the money in a Tangerine savings account?

Tangerine savings account allows direct deposits. But, I'm not sure the Tangerine savings account allows pre-authorized payments. Were the transactions returned to DUCA as NCP or 907 for "No debit allowed"?

That $2 million PAD limit Rick reported may be for a Tangerine chequing account.

October 1, 2017
3:03 pm
tcharger67
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Norman, it is only posted as a NSF on DUCAs side.
I have since contacted Tangerines Obusdsman(to be contacted within 90 days according to their website). Only refunded tangerines NSF fees at this point
On a positive note, I contacted Michelle at DUCA yesterday, to explain the issue. She was willing to talk to her office come Monday morning and will try to have the funds on her end dismissed.

SG irregardless of crackdown, I know my business will never be orange again. And I will always use the chat (screen shot all correspondence)
When I asked DUCA about withdrawls, they were very clear, that the maximum is 50k daily, 200k weekly. Only way around that is with a mailed bank draft. DUCA was clear and honest. I like that.

October 1, 2017
9:50 pm
Norman1
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tcharger67 said
Norman, it is only posted as a NSF on DUCAs side.
I have since contacted Tangerines Obusdsman (to be contacted within 90 days according to their website). Only refunded tangerines NSF fees at this point

It is quite frustrating when a financial institution screws up.

Let us know what Tangerine's Ombudsman finds. It would be interesting to find out why Tangerine returned the two $100,000 pre-authorized debits as NSF, with $200,000 in the account and a $2 million limit on PAD's.

Maybe their computers had a "senility" moment and thought $100,000 is greater than $200,000! sf-laugh

October 1, 2017
10:11 pm
Rick
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I don't think I would have pre-cleared with Tang for a trf initiated from Duca. Sounds like Tang held the funds for the trf, then declined the trf because the funds were on hold. Catch 22 if you will.
I am curious if the 100K amount triggered any flags. Maybe 99.999.00 would have gone through.
I don't think it matters whether or not the account was savings or checking as long as you have the funds in the account you have linked. I've only had the checking acct for just over a year. Prior to that I used the savings.
I don't know if they are cracking down on people moving money around to take advantage of promos.... they just keep changing the limits, they doesn't appear to be written down anywhere, you get a different story depending on which CSR you talk to, and any records or recordings are never available if you have to call them on anything. I'm sure if I initiated a trf of 2 mil out of Tang from a linked account, there would be no way to prove that I was told by a CSR that I could when it gets declined. Seems like they keep moving the goal lines to take advantage of people that can't keep track of the changes. Not a good banking philosophy. Maybe they have too much in deposits and want to weed out the ones that play the game too well by pi***ng them off. I'm getting close to the straw that broke the camel's back when it comes to their BS. But the rates......ooooooo....the rates.
That's my 2 cents FWIW. Can't wait to see what the varying promo rates, if any, are offered to members. One good thing... 5th is Thurs, so any trfs initiated Friday from linked accounts will get double interest for the weekend.

October 2, 2017
11:09 am
tcharger67
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rick, just to reiterate. the amounts were posted at 100,000 twice because duca csr informed me their maximum account transfer is 100,000 per transaction, twice daily. the tangerine csr informed me that I was cleared up to 2m if needed

October 2, 2017
12:24 pm
Rick
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tcharger67 said
rick, just to reiterate. the amounts were posted at 100,000 twice because duca csr informed me their maximum account transfer is 100,000 per transaction, twice daily. the tangerine csr informed me that I was cleared up to 2m if needed  

Thanx for clarifying

October 2, 2017
12:40 pm
jgsbrown
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SEEMS TO SOLIDIFY MY DECISION IN THE PAST TWO MONTHS TO TRANSFER ALL MONEY FROM MY WIFE, HER SISTER, MY PARENTS, GOOD FRIEND AND MY ACCOUNT FROM TANGERINE. NEW LEADERSHIP (MS. RIDEOUT) AND BNS HAVE CHANGED THIS COMPANY FOR THE BAD. BEST WISHES FOR THOSE WHO STAY.

October 4, 2017
2:56 am
speedwagen
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For the record - if someone has $200K in an acc't and the funds are NOT on hold @ Tang, they have no right to NOT honor the PAD UNLESS there's an issue with the PAD. In that case, they have NO right to charge anything for a faulty PAD.

Even if the funds were on hold and they were to receive a kosher PAD, they STILL have no right to charge anything, let alone label it NSF. In fact, they actually have the discretion to remove the hold & honor the PAD. If they returned it unpaid, it's supposed to be labelled "funds not available" not NSF and the receiving institution in turn has no right to charge for an NSF.

1 thing I'll point out with Tang is if you were to transfer funds internally from 1 acc't to another in order to cover an incoming PAD, you have to complete that transfer by 1am EST @ the latest. If you missed that cut-off, the PAD WILL bounce, even though the PAD didn't post before you completed the internal transfer, as they usually post ~6am EST.

If there were no irregularities such as those mentioned, Tang screwed the pooch & tcharger67 has the right to get the Tang charges reversed and Tang would also be liable for reimbursing DUCA's charges, not to mention any lost interest for delaying the transfers, presuming DUCA's rates were higher.

If all his/her charges aren't covered, besides the Ombudsman, there's also the Scotiabank Office of the President, which I've had success with in the past re:tang, as well as OBSI.

As far as PAD limits are concerned, you don't need authorization from Tang. Ever since they imposed their push limits, I've been pulling my funds out @ will w/o any issues.

Lastly, with FI's constantly attempting to go where no bank has gone before, all of the above may be moot as they could very well be pushing to set new precedents, but it's up to us to push back & not allow them.

October 4, 2017
5:13 am
mr P. Pincer
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Rick said
I don't think I would have pre-cleared with Tang for a trf initiated from Duca. Sounds like Tang held the funds for the trf, then declined the trf because the funds were on hold. Catch 22 if you will.
 

^I would agree that's most likely what happened, seems like a screw-up on Tangerine's side. Hopefully the Ombudsman will help and tcharger67 won't have to take it to the next level.

Rick said
I am curious if the 100K amount triggered any flags. Maybe 99.999.00 would have gone through.

No, I pulled more than 100K out of my Tang savings to Hubert on friday, no problems at all.

Hubert shows the transaction as happening on Sept 29, Tangerine shows it as being on Oct 3, so I gained four days interest rather than losing about four days if I had tried to push the money on friday.

Better than seeing your money sit in limbo over the weekend.
The only drawback is that there's a hold on money that you pull, whereas if you push it, when it gets there, there is no hold on it.

October 4, 2017
6:27 am
Rick
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tcharger67 said
When I asked DUCA about withdrawls, they were very clear, that the maximum is 50k daily, 200k weekly. Only way around that is with a mailed bank draft. DUCA was clear and honest. I like that.  

tcharger67 said
at the same time I withdrew 100,000 twice via duca financial. Today I have 2 NSF charges in tangerine.

Maybe that's your problem right there. You went over Duca's daily limit by 150K

October 4, 2017
9:50 am
Doug
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tcharger67 said
Well guys I decided to switch my savings into Duca financial last week. Unfortunately I got a nasty awakening when I checked my Tangerine Account today
2 No sufficient funds charges on my tangerine... Why because the two withdrawls had exceeded their daily withdrawl limits.

Now there is a back story to this. When I had opened my accounts with Tangerine, I asked them if it would be possible to move more than the daily withdrawl limit, and was informed that yes, it would be no problem, as long as Tangerine had been informed.
So last week, i got onto tangerines chat, and spoke to the rep, he informed me the transactions each at 100,000 would be no problem, and that i could move the funds to Duca.
Guess what happened today. 2x 40.00 NSF funds at Tangerine, and 2 NSF charges at Duca.
I just spent over an hour on the phone with tangerine, spoke to 3 different individuals, and apparently the chat history was *not available* and could only show that I had spoken to someone on the day of the transaction. further more, only Tangerine will refund their two NSF 40.00$ transactions, not DUCAs

I have never had a bank make me so unbelivably frustrated and i will never do business with them again.
Hope you guys get dont make the same mistake, and always keep your records.  

Ouch! Did you happen to grab a screenshot showing no holds? If indeed this is true that Tangerine is now applying one's "daily withdrawal limits," normally only applicable to ABM/PoS transactions with literally all other FIs, including its corporate parent Scotiabank, this would be a marked and dangerous departure for Tangerine and would be grounds for me to exit the relationship completely and recommend my friends do the same. 🙁

ABM and PoS withdrawal limits are in place for a reason. It should not apply to externally-initiated (i.e., from another FI, or "pulled" EFT transactions) transactions on cleared funds at Tangerine. This would effectively mean that Tangerine has put in place (likely) illegal capital controls on withdrawals, normally instituted at the demand of the country's central bank (i.e., Cyprus a few years ago). 🙁

Cheers,
Doug

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