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September 14, 2021
12:08 pm
Kidd
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Household service size for an electric car.

https://drewathome.com/200-amp-service-for-your-electric-car/

Electric cars used for short round trips, would be charged at your own house. You plug your car in overnight and off you go the next morning.

If you drive to a destination, say your cottage which is up north on a friday night. Sunday on your drive home, you might find yourself walking on the shoulder, if you don't top up your battery at your cottage.

Those living in apartments or condominiums, parking underground, are going to have a difficult time finding a place to plug in.

September 14, 2021
12:47 pm
savemoresaveoften
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EV is the way to go and there is no going back. Right now the world focus on pollution as today's problem that must be addressed NOW, the hazardous waste issue with EV is another problem to solve 50-100 years DOWN the road.

I neither support or hate EV, cuz one just have to get used to it. I absolutely love the convenience of ICE, but if EV prices keep dropping while carbon tax on gasoline keeps skyrocketing, I will be a EV guy quite soon. The only thing I will miss is the manual gearbox that my ICE gives me. Without using ur left foot, its not driving, its commuting, and one never becomes a true good driver either.

September 14, 2021
2:15 pm
Loonie
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Demand for electricity has been going up steadily ever since it was invented. When we bought our house, it still had original wiring, 30 Amp service knob-and-tube with a scary intricate weave of borrowed power across circuits. When the house was built, refrigerators were not widely available, let alone toaster ovens, microwaves, freezers, clothe dryers and power tools. We upgraded to 100 and now it needs 200.
That's just the way it goes.

September 14, 2021
2:36 pm
Alexandre
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Kidd said
Household service size for an electric car.

https://drewathome.com/200-amp-service-for-your-electric-car/

Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Doug Ford was wise not to allow unnecessary additions to every new house in Ontario. He must be having enough friends with BEV, who charge them at home and laugh at notion of needing 200A upgrade.

Hint: I can get over 120 km range for BEV charging it in my garage from already existent 120V 30A electric outlet. Per each night.

That's more than enough for daily commute, and unless you drive long distances every weekend, you'll have full battery in no time and it'll stay full after every night recharging.

Even if you do, upgrade garage to standard electric dryer outlet. Unless you run both BEV charging and electric dryer at night, you'll be all right.
Even if you run them both (silly you), you still should be all right unless you need to also turn on air conditioner, electric stove and your hot tub at 2 am simultaneously.
See, we finally have found use case where 200A upgrade may be necessary.

September 14, 2021
3:43 pm
Righand
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Alexandre said

Kidd said
Household service size for an electric car.

https://drewathome.com/200-amp-service-for-your-electric-car/

Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Doug Ford was wise not to allow unnecessary additions to every new house in Ontario. He must be having enough friends with BEV, who charge them at home and laugh at notion of needing 200A upgrade.

Hint: I can get over 120 km range for BEV charging it in my garage from already existent 120V 30A electric outlet. Per each night.

That's more than enough for daily commute, and unless you drive long distances every weekend, you'll have full battery in no time and it'll stay full after every night recharging.

Even if you do, upgrade garage to standard electric dryer outlet. Unless you run both BEV charging and electric dryer at night, you'll be all right.
Even if you run them both (silly you), you still should be all right unless you need to also turn on air conditioner, electric stove and your hot tub at 2 am simultaneously.
See, we finally have found use case where 200A upgrade may be necessary.  

You seem to have forgotten that most new houses today that heat electrically are built with 200 amp service.

September 14, 2021
5:21 pm
Alexandre
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Righand said

You seem to have forgotten that most new houses today that heat electrically are built with 200 amp service.  

You are right. In my neighborhood everyone has natural gas heating. I did not consider electricity heating.

Still, if your house has 120V 20A electric outlet in garage, that would be enough for many single BEV households.
Standard 240V 30A electric dryer outlet would be more than enough for most households that own single BEV.

Houses with 100 amp service are totally adequate to handle single BEV, perhaps even two. If your electric dryer can run during the day when other electric equipment is running, it'll sure be able to supply power to BEV at night.

The challenge might come for multi-BEV families in older houses, but we are not at that point yet. It would be nice to reach the point when there is at least one BEV per household, and that might take 15-20 years.

September 14, 2021
5:54 pm
Bill
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As of today, considering cradle-to-grave, EV's are an environmental disaster compared to buying, say, a Toyota Corolla (or, even better, keeping your car as long as possible). No-one is considering the mining of all the rare and other metals, the processing, manufacturing and shipping for assembly and distribution of all components, etc, etc, etc, we just regurgitate the gas vs plugging-in factor we are directed to focus on. (Not entirely parallel, but when you buy a new laptop, for example, apparently about 80% of the energy used for its manufacture, lifetime use and ultimate disposal has already been consumed before you turn it on for the first time. That illustrates the importance of cradle-to-grave analysis.) People have no idea, it's all a bunch of virtue-signaling, imo.

September 14, 2021
6:18 pm
Bobbyjet11
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Bill said
As of today, considering cradle-to-grave, EV's are an environmental disaster compared to buying, say, a Toyota Corolla (or, even better, keeping your car as long as possible). No-one is considering the mining of all the rare and other metals, the processing, manufacturing and shipping for assembly and distribution of all components, etc, etc, etc, we just regurgitate the gas vs plugging-in factor we are directed to focus on. (Not entirely parallel, but when you buy a new laptop, for example, apparently about 80% of the energy used for its manufacture, lifetime use and ultimate disposal has already been consumed before you turn it on for the first time. That illustrates the importance of cradle-to-grave analysis.) People have no idea, it's all a bunch of virtue-signaling, imo.  

But it's not about today. It's about the planet we leave behind for our children, grandchildren and future generations. I think we need to leave that to the experts ... not the armchair critics who will always find an excuse to remain status quo.

September 15, 2021
2:27 am
smayer97
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Bill said
... That illustrates the importance of cradle-to-grave analysis. People have no idea, it's all a bunch of virtue-signaling, imo.  

Agreed and the above sums it up. I'm all for preservation and good stewardship of our resources and the impact on people in principle... BUT as the above implies, it has to make sense.

BUT it is FAR MORE than that. The efforts down this path is about creating a means to an end... wealth redistribution and imposing a vision of the world that only the few decide and dictate... and it denies viable alternative perspectives.

September 15, 2021
7:37 am
Alexandre
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Bill said
As of today, considering cradle-to-grave, EV's are an environmental disaster compared to buying, say, a Toyota Corolla.

One day the oil will end, and we better prepare for that day in advance.

Also, some of these cradle-to-grave studies are biased, if you read them through. For example, they might assume gasoline magically appears from the nozzle at the pump, while electricity must be generated primarily from the coal.

For us, living in Ontario and Quebec, these studies bias is visible: because, we know what tar sands are in our country and we know that electricity mix in these two provinces does not include coal at all.

Another example of bias is claim by Andrew Shackleton, a real estate broker, that household will need 200amp upgrade to afford BEV charging at home. Meaning homeowner investment in house retrofit.
He must be a good broker: he speaks very convincingly. The problem is, if you always trust what real estate broker tells you, without critical thinking on your part, you might be for an expense you do not necessary need.

The follow-up assumption is the electric grid will require massive upgrade or it will fall apart as BEV become more common.
This one is false, too.

My favorite, which I have read elsewhere, and I am not making it up: BEVs will increase electricity demand by so much, an urgent additional capacity for grid will be required. That urgent capacity can only be provided by deploying diesel generators. Thus, making BEV environmentally worse than diesel car.

September 15, 2021
9:36 am
Norman1
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An electric car can be charged at different rates. Current can vary from 8A to 48A. Voltage at 120V or 220V. It just takes longer at lower amperages and voltages.

The electric car can use the clothes dryer's 30A 220V circuit. Do people really need to run their clothes dryer for 7 hours every night?

Maybe the second electric car can use the cooking stove's circuit. People aren't baking and cooking all night are they?

September 15, 2021
11:58 am
Norman1
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Alexandre said

The follow-up assumption is the electric grid will require massive upgrade or it will fall apart as BEV become more common.
This one is false, too.

That's not false.

One can't replace the energy distributed by gas stations now with electricity from the electrical grid without generating and transporting more electricity.

There will be an issue should substantial amount of the daytime electricity be generated by photovoltaic solar and that electricity will be needed during the night for charging everyone's cars.

September 15, 2021
12:43 pm
Alexandre
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Norman1 said
One can't replace the energy distributed by gas stations now with electricity from the electrical grid without generating and transporting more electricity.

That's the thing: nobody needs to. The emphasis in this argument is on "now." Someone calculated how much electricity BEV consumes daily for an average trip, multiplied by number of gasoline vehicles for any given region, comes with mind blowing number of additional GW required and says "if BEV replaces ICE overnight, there is no grid capacity to handle that."

Numbers don't lie, but their presentation could.

In a short run, electric vehicles will help to stabilize grid, by charging at night. It is when there is excess electricity available utilities don't know what to do with. I am, again, talking Ontario and Quebec, not some place burning coal and natural gas for most of their electricity generation.

In a short run, no additional capacity will be required, existent will be utilized overnight more efficiently.

In longer run, an additional capacity may be required, but "long run" has a horizon of 30 to 40 years at least, counting from today.

Which means, instead of overnight dramatic change in electricity demand, there will be slow demand increase utilities should be able to handle.

"The grid of 2060 should be able to handle 100% BEV" sounds less dramatic and more achievable than "The grid will collapse if everyone ditches their gasoline car for BEV overnight."

September 16, 2021
5:57 am
savemoresaveoften
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Alexandre said

Norman1 said
One can't replace the energy distributed by gas stations now with electricity from the electrical grid without generating and transporting more electricity.

That's the thing: nobody needs to. The emphasis in this argument is on "now." Someone calculated how much electricity BEV consumes daily for an average trip, multiplied by number of gasoline vehicles for any given region, comes with mind blowing number of additional GW required and says "if BEV replaces ICE overnight, there is no grid capacity to handle that."

Numbers don't lie, but their presentation could.

In a short run, electric vehicles will help to stabilize grid, by charging at night. It is when there is excess electricity available utilities don't know what to do with. I am, again, talking Ontario and Quebec, not some place burning coal and natural gas for most of their electricity generation.

In a short run, no additional capacity will be required, existent will be utilized overnight more efficiently.

In longer run, an additional capacity may be required, but "long run" has a horizon of 30 to 40 years at least, counting from today.

Which means, instead of overnight dramatic change in electricity demand, there will be slow demand increase utilities should be able to handle.

"The grid of 2060 should be able to handle 100% BEV" sounds less dramatic and more achievable than "The grid will collapse if everyone ditches their gasoline car for BEV overnight."  

well said, at some point peak demand in electricity will be overnite when every body's car is plugged in, but that is way down the road. It will turn time-of-day use pricing upside down. I hope they will size the grid properly to handle those hot summer days when you will have steady draw from EV charging plus the aircon in full blast at nite.

Maybe by then some Tesla or whiz kid personal generator will be fully developed so that all stand alone houses will be off the grid. Oh wait, what source of energy will it use...

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