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Add new entries to the forum for the following Banks/FIs
April 2, 2021
2:51 pm
smayer97
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Could sections for the following be created under the Financial Institutions section of the forum and respective discussion threads moved there?

Canadian Western Bank (CWB)
edit: (Neo Financial) Is see that was now added
Saven

Any others also worth considering?

April 2, 2021
5:12 pm
LK
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smayer97 said
Could sections for the following be created under the Financial Institutions section of the forum and respective discussion threads moved there?

Canadian Western Bank (CWB)
edit: (Neo Financial) Is see that was now added
Saven

Any others also worth considering?  

Re CWB, see Motive: https://www.motivefinancial.com/en/about-us ("We are a division of the Canadian Western Bank. As such, your eligible deposits are held at Canadian Western Bank, a member of Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation (CDIC).")

April 2, 2021
5:19 pm
smayer97
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So CDW is NOT a separate legal entity from Motive, like Laurentian from to B2B Bank or Scotiabank is from Tangerine, or CIBC is from Simplii, etc?

Or another way to view it is are deposits at CDW not insured separately from deposits with Motive?

April 2, 2021
5:31 pm
LK
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I'm not sure about B2B or Tangerine, but Simplii is a division of CIBC.

https://www.simplii.com/en/faq.html: "What's the relationship between Simplii Financial and CIBC? Simplii Financial is a trademark and division of CIBC. Banking products and services branded Simplii Financial are offered by CIBC. “We”, “us” and “our” refer to the Simplii Financial division of CIBC."

Also see: https://simplii.intelliresponse.com/?requestType=NormalRequest&source=3&id=2047&sessionId=6fd8ee7a-9726-11e9-b2b2-b7a959ce6df4&question=Is+my+money+secure+with+Simplii+Financial

April 2, 2021
5:40 pm
smayer97
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smayer97 said
So CDW is NOT a separate legal entity from Motive, like Laurentian from to B2B Bank or Scotiabank is from Tangerine, or CIBC is from Simplii, etc?

Or another way to view it is are deposits at CDW not insured separately from deposits with Motive?  

Found my own answer:
"As a Motive client, your chequing, savings and investments are eligible for deposit insurance through Canadian Western Bank, a member of Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation. In the case where a person has eligible deposits through Motive, the $100,000 coverage limit is applied to the aggregate eligible deposits of that person with Motive and CWB."
https://apply.motivefinancial.com/AboutUs/FAQs/ CDIC Coverage tab.

I also see from the above reply that CDIC insurance for Simplii is combined with CIBC. Did not know that either.

Surprised.

I know B2B and Laurentian, and Tangerine and Scotiabank are covered separately. But are there any other online banks that are NOT insured separately from their parent owner?

Is there a discussion thread on this already?

April 2, 2021
6:03 pm
Loonie
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I agree that this can be confusing, but I don't think there is a thread on it.

The fact that Simplii is not separate is one reason I have not dealt with them, especially when I had more money in CIBC. However, I am changing my mind. I have dealt with Tangerine, but no longer see any reason to do so as their rates are paltry, I get no promos, and they have been hemorrhaging clients, so I'm not sure if they will last. I think CIBC is more secure than Tang.

Forum member file is putting together data on the various FIs. Perhaps that could be added as a sticky to the relevant subforums? Seems like too much for a chart.

Insurance info is hard to fully access at the CDIC site. It used to be better. Many of the FIs also do not make this as clear as they might.
T5s can sometimes be more helpful in figuring out who exactly holds your money - e.g. Motive will appear as Cdn Western Bk; Hubert will be Sunova; and Oaken will be Home Trust or Home Bank, but i don't know what it says for Simplii.

April 2, 2021
6:19 pm
MG
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Loonie said

i don't know what it says for Simplii.  

The payer's name on the T5 is listed as CIBC Direct Banking Division.

April 2, 2021
6:36 pm
Norman1
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The issuer of deposits is in the legal account agreements. That's because one cannot contract legally with a non-entity like Simplii Financial, EQ Bank, or Hubert Financial. Those are just marketing/brand names used by the actual legal entities CIBC, Equitable Bank, and Sunova Credit Union.

The issuer is often also mentioned on the monthly statements.

One can't assume that the issuer will be the same for all the accounts of one brand. For example, not all TD branded deposits are issued by The Toronto-Dominion Bank. Some are. Some are issued by Canada Trust. Some are issued by TD Mortgage Corporation or TD Pacific Mortgage Corporation.

April 2, 2021
7:02 pm
AltaRed
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I think it is beyond the 'expectations' of this website for it to stick its head out on how and when and where certain of the entries on this site are associated with other divisions or corporate entities in their 'family'.

The consumer needs to be responsible to know who they are contracting with via appropriate perusal of the associated websites. AFAIK, associations, where they exist, are mentioned at least some of the time in the company profiles.

April 2, 2021
7:43 pm
Loonie
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I have to disagree completely with AltaRed on this.

It is precisely these kinds of issues that this site should be concerned about. People on this forum are constantly looking at any number of FIs, many of which they never heard of before now, and they need info which is not easy to get at. If it were easy, there would not be these questions. AltaRed is a very sophisticated and knowledgeable investor who only buys GICs through a brokerage, puts only a very small proportion of his assets into them, and is not representative of the majority who seek info here.

Re: Norman's example at TD: Some years ago I was needing to get some 90 day term deposits for largish amounts (over CDIC limits). I knew enough to know about CDIC and their limits, which were then I think, 60K. I knew enough to know that TD (where my money was sitting) had several different insured entities. I did not know how best to spread my money among what was available or which entities offered which products as that was difficult to figure out. I sat down with a rep at TD and pretty much had to force him to find out and lay it out for me. His goal was to get me to do what was easiest for him and to reassure me that TD was the safest FI in the world, basically, and that it didn't matter which entity my money was in. My goal was to keep it all insured. If I'd wanted to simply put my trust in the bank, I would have been buying bank stocks, not term deposits. He acted like nobody had ever asked such questions before, which might have been true. Eventually I got what I wanted from him, but only because I was very persistent, and, even so, I couldn't get all of my term deposits and bank account fully covered at TD.

This is information that should be readily available to the investor, and usually isn't. Many people don't even understand the basics of CDIC coverage, never mind the complicated network of bank structures. It's important information and it belongs here. The question is where and how we can include it.

April 2, 2021
9:05 pm
AltaRed
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I recognize forums such as this are invaluable as a consolidator of relevant information for the saver/depositor. If Peter wants to include associations as it pertains to CDIC insurance, that is his call. I'd put a disclaimer on it though as associations can change AND this is, after all, a collection of mostly anonymous participants. Ultimately, savers/depositors need to do their due diligence on institutions they wish to open accounts with.

FWIW, my recommendation would be to put the information on CDIC associations in the intros to each company profile, as it is already to some degree. For instance, it is said well for Oaken, but it is not specifically said well for EQ Bank, LBC Digital, Simplii, Motive et al...where it could say 'aggregated with parent company X' for purposes of CDIC insurance. They implicitly say that (parent company) but I agree few would connect the dots.

April 3, 2021
5:35 am
Bill
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HISA & GIC charts could show proper legal entity name under Bank/Credit Union, then account name can make clearer the marketing, etc name. I agree that entities/names that don't exist as legal entities (e.g. Oaken, Simplii, Hubert, etc) ought not be listed as name of fi.

April 3, 2021
8:45 am
Norman1
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I think that bank/financial institution column should be renamed as brand.

The brand is important as that is what people know the deposits by. People will be searching for info about their Oaken-branded deposits by "Oaken" and not by "Home Trust Company" or "Home Bank".

If one does search for "Home Trust Company" or "Home Bank", then one will find the Home Trust/Home Bank branded GIC's and savings accounts offered through brokers and advisors!

The issuers of the deposit can be shown in a separate column.

April 3, 2021
12:11 pm
Bill
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As far as I can tell all this only matters re CDIC coverage, so maybe there could be a separate place showing, where there's more than one, the different brand names that exist under the same CDIC coverage.

On the other hand, it's not like this site needs to provide everything on a platter - the more you spoonfeed the more people need to be spoonfed, draw the line somewhere!

April 3, 2021
12:20 pm
smayer97
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In following that idea, one idea may simply be to change the FI column to Brand, add a column for Parent Company/FI and an Insurance column labelling the insurance institution (CDIC, DICO, DGCM, etc) with Aggregate vs Separate/Individual, or something along those lines.
And to save on horizontal space, your could use codes with a legend at the top or bottom (and this section could have links to the respective insurance sites for CDIC, DICO, DGCM, and a brief summary, e.g. CDIC $100K per eligible category of account, DICO $250K, DGCM unlimited)

After all, these are all critical in the decision making as to where people choose to place the funds, and the more they have to place, the more these data matter.

So @Peter, is this something that would be realistic to consider?

P.S. It is not about spoon-feeding. There is a lot of info to digest. After YEARS of experience I still learn and discover things I never thought of. It is sites like this that have helped expand my considerations and exposed to me to info and opportunities that I may never have found otherwise.

So, it is about a resource... helping pool the cumulative info from everyone and presenting it into a usable format, rather than the same questions being raised over and over, and having to either dig through the forums for a piece of info or not even knowing that you are even missing something.

Isn't that ultimately the point of this site, to leverage the experience and knowledge of others? Then all the more to try to organize that into a more readily accessible format.

And I dare say that I do not think it is a lot of work... at least it is mostly a one time effort as this info is not very dynamic.

April 3, 2021
1:17 pm
Bill
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"Parent Company" would not be good notation, e.g. BNS is Tangerine's parent company, noting that would be (at a minimum) confusing re CDIC coverage.

April 3, 2021
1:27 pm
Doug
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smayer97 said
So CDW is NOT a separate legal entity from Motive, like Laurentian from to B2B Bank or Scotiabank is from Tangerine, or CIBC is from Simplii, etc?

Or another way to view it is are deposits at CDW not insured separately from deposits with Motive?  

Correct. It's a virtual branch transit that operates as a "division" of Canadian Western Bank. It is much like Simplii Financial is to CIBC.

Cheers,
Doug

April 3, 2021
1:35 pm
Doug
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Bill said
"Parent Company" would not be good notation, e.g. BNS is Tangerine's parent company, noting that would be (at a minimum) confusing re CDIC coverage.  

If there is interest, I'd be happy to maintain a new Google spreadsheet, linked from the "Resources" page that lists the parent company of each of the CDIC members. In effect, a better CDIC members list that lists the ultimate parent company for each group of CDIC members.

For instance, The Bank of Nova Scotia is the parent company of the following CDIC members:
ADS Canadian Bank
Canadian Tire Bank*
Montreal Trust Company of Canada
National Trust Company
Scotia Mortgage Corporation
Tangerine Bank

* 20% non-controlling minority equity ownership

The current CDIC member list page has been updated, I see, but I'd argue it's actually worse in that the hierarchical list lists trade names of divisions that are themselves not CDIC members (i.e., "Wood Gundy," as an example).

Cheers,
Doug

April 3, 2021
2:11 pm
smayer97
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I'm not sure if Parent Company would be the right label but the intent is simply listing that which is related to the insurance... that is the context I would deem most useful and relevant. This is to be distinct from partial or whole ownership, such as Scotiabank owning Tangerine or 20% of Canadian Tire Bank.

The issue is that of direct legal financial liability from a depositor's perspective.

April 3, 2021
2:55 pm
Doug
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smayer97 said
I'm not sure if Parent Company would be the right label but the intent is simply listing that which is related to the insurance... that is the context I would deem most useful and relevant. This is to be distinct from partial or whole ownership, such as Scotiabank owning Tangerine or 20% of Canadian Tire Bank.

The issue is that of direct legal financial liability from a depositor's perspective.  

Yeah, "parent company" is an imperfect term, particularly for minority equity investments. While it's true that a "parent company" could sell, close down, or write off its equity investment in a subsidiary, as since often the deposits of one financial institution group share the same or similar debt rating, there is a perceived increased safety by holding deposits with a higher rated financial institution group.

Cheers,
Doug

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