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Unfortunate experience with Motive, not impressed.
June 28, 2019
10:48 am
HSY
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Recently wanted to open an account with Motive. filled out the application, and was sent an email back the following day telling me they couldnt entirely confirm my application details with equifax and therefore i needed to send in two pieces of major documentation including "UNREDACTED in any way", either a complete financial statement or credit card statement or investment statement AND a utility bill to prove my identity, in short completely unredacted statements to prove only this-- that my first initial =my first name! I called them about this, the only concern for them was that my first name did not match the way equifax has me listed which is by first initial ( everything else matched including birthdate address sin etc. Equifax for some unknown reason , has my first name listed by initial only, though all my accounts reporting to equifax have my full first name, and i also have a credit report dating over decades with excellent rating. I explained i have never had a. problem , or such a request with any other online application i have made, including a recent online credit card applicaton at another bank (where we dont have an account) and which was approved without issue after an equifax check. Also we have accounts at 2 other online banks , neither of which required this on opening ( and both did an equifax check, i know as i have checked at equifax). To top it off, i was assured by the telephone agent that it was just a soft enquiry to my account that was done, but when i checked I discovered it was actually a hard enquiry. Did he not know better, he should have, or was i just lied to? - I think the requirements for just proving that my first initial = my first name are over the top and show no common sense. I am told these are the fintrac requirements, if so , my question to Motive was why has this NEVER been required by any other institution then ? No answer other than the fintrac requirements changed last july 2018 . well several online applications i have made were done since that time and were approved with no issue. - i have always applied for credit cards online with no issue and have opened several online bank accounts out of province with no issue nor additional requirements to prove that my first initial= my first name. totally unimpressed and not planning to proceed with them at this time. Just putting it here to let others know of their outlier requirements. sf-frown

June 28, 2019
12:27 pm
Loonie
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I agree that this is ridiculous and lacks common sense. But I also would not be surprised if such requirements exist. It may be that other FIs have just not yet caught up, and this one is following what they see as the letter of the law. They are all getting more paranoid.

I think you have no choice but to comply or go away. And I would expect more of this sort of stuff in future.

BTW, I sent a "redacted" bank statement for motus opening. I just folded back the portion with the transactions when I scanned it as I didn't think that was any of their business and it was not essential for establishing my identity. They did not object.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

June 28, 2019
1:02 pm
HSY
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I specifically asked them on phone whether I could redact the financial information, absolutely not was the reply and it could NOT be faxed either that was in original directions , had to be originals sent via snail mail or PDF , in original format ( how secure is PDF ? Not ) left a very bad taste in my mouth

June 28, 2019
2:24 pm
Loonie
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I suppose you could try doing as I did with motus, and wait and see what happens. Odds may be poor, but you never know. The person who looks at it when it arrives may have more sense than the one you spoke to. The only redactions that should be of interest to them would have to do with your identity, address, and account numbers.

June 28, 2019
2:54 pm
Doug
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I have to respectfully disagree with you, HSY. I'm a bit perplexed by Motive Financial's willingness for you to send a copy of your Equifax credit bureau report and/or your bank or utility statements (presumably, recent ones) to confirm your identity as I more than expected you to say that they refused to open the account because they couldn't your identity based on problems with your Equifax credit bureau report (usually a fraud monitoring block, lack of credit history, or lack of recent credit history in the past three years) as another forum user, Michael, reported that was the outcome due to problems with his credit report.

So, the fact Motive Financial was willing to accept documentation from you in another manner is very encouraging and shows a willingness to work with potential clients to deliver exceptional customer service. Oaken Financial is another company that has demonstrated a similar commitment, especially with the aforementioned Michael to open up an Oaken Savings account for him.

Obviously, the reports can't be redacted, but surely they would've accepted them in a *.zip file that is either encrypted or password-protected, provided you share the password for the file under a separate cover (i.e., separate e-mail message). Alternatively, I'm sure they would've accepted a fax or, failing that, certainly snail mail.

Such is the way of our virtual banking and investment world. In fact, even Motus Bank will request copies of your existing RIF accounts showing account balance and portfolio information in order to process your transfer-in request, as Loonie can attest and assuming they actually properly process the RIF transfer-in request. 😉

Cheers,
Doug

June 28, 2019
3:32 pm
krwilson
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I just opened a Motive account for my wife (I do not have one, or probably want one) and received the same request for more information a few days ago. Here is my answer back to them:

"Lot of work to just get an account open. I have never had any issues before!

Attached is my PC credit card and a scan of my water bill. Accept this or please cancel my application."

It was accepted and we await the package in the mail. It stated NO scans but I was NOT going to waste a stamp and envelope to mail the water bill to them, and have them return it!

So, I started a Manulife account for my mother and let the time period expire for I could not be bothered with all their hoops to jump through. Motive is playing a close second. Motus Bank is sucking for the archaic money transfers. These new players seem so lacking in many ways....one would think you would want state of the art experience at this point....NOT.

EQ Bank has held good for me and I am putting some money in their 3% 3 month GICs now. Linked accounts are sooooo easy with them.

June 28, 2019
3:37 pm
Doug
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krwilson said
I just opened a Motive account for my wife (I do not have one, or probably want one) and received the same request for more information a few days ago. Here is my answer back to them:

"Lot of work to just get an account open. I have never had any issues before!

Attached is my PC credit card and a scan of my water bill. Accept this or please cancel my application."

It was accepted and we await the package in the mail. It stated NO scans but I was NOT going to waste a stamp and envelope to mail the water bill to them, and have them return it!

So, I started a Manulife account for my mother and let the time period expire for I could not be bothered with all their hoops to jump through. Motive is playing a close second. Motus Bank is sucking for the archaic money transfers. These new players seem so lacking in many ways....one would think you would want state of the art experience at this point....NOT.

EQ Bank has held good for me and I am putting some money in their 3% 3 month GICs now. Linked accounts are sooooo easy with them.  

It sounds like there may have been an issue with you or spouse's credit report, krwilson, because Motive Financial normally accepts a credit bureau check and an Interac e-Transfer sent to your newly opened account as they use Central 1's OpenAnywhere™ digital account opening software.

Nevertheless, it's good Motive Financial is making good on opening accounts for people with limited or no credit history, or whose credit reports can't readily be verified (i.e., mismatch in information submitted on application versus what's on credit report).

Cheers,
Doug

June 28, 2019
3:41 pm
krwilson
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Doug said

It sounds like there may have been an issue with you or spouse's credit report, krwilson, because Motive Financial normally accepts a credit bureau check and an Interac e-Transfer sent to your newly opened account as they use Central 1's OpenAnywhere™ digital account opening software.

Nevertheless, it's good Motive Financial is making good on opening accounts for people with limited or no credit history, or whose credit reports can't readily be verified (i.e., mismatch in information submitted on application versus what's on credit report).

Only did this to take advantage of the 2.8% account but it will probably disappear by the time we receive the package in the mail. A package in the mail for an online account.....really?!

Cheers,
Doug  

She has great credit and accounts at Tangerine, Motus Bank, ScotiaBank, EQ, etc. Never had a single issue until Motive...so where is the problem, I think it's Motive.

June 28, 2019
5:12 pm
Doug
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krwilson said

She has great credit and accounts at Tangerine, Motus Bank, ScotiaBank, EQ, etc. Never had a single issue until Motive...so where is the problem, I think it's Motive.  

It may not be her credit rating, but something that didn't match with the data input versus what's on her credit report, depending on either (a) the information not matching in the automated process whereby she answers initial questions regarding her credit report or (b) a secondary, thorough, and manual examination by Motive Financial. I'm hesitant to draw any conclusions as to systematic problems with Motive's account opening process as I know they digitized and automated much of it several years ago, with the launch of OpenAnywhere™.

Cheers,
Doug

June 28, 2019
6:32 pm
Bill
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Guess it depends on your perspective, but I've been a client of Motive (and previous name) since day one and I'm kinda reassured about the security of my money when I hear stuff like that, that they're super-sticklers, even appearing to be unreasonably so to some outsiders who might not understand why they're so fussy. Seems like everybody's starting up online banks these days, just use your phone for a few minutes and you're up and running on Joe's bank, I wonder about that sometimes. Could be anybody anywhere on earth trying to open an account remotely for some surreptitious reason, maybe with stolen personal info, it's not like the old days down at the local branch.

June 28, 2019
8:02 pm
Loonie
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If only I believed that all the fallderall made our accounts secure. I don't. Bank statements, being computer generated and not watermarked, would surely be easy enough for a determined skilled fraudster to replicate.

The things that have put my and others' money and identity at risk are more to do with hacking of FI systems and rogue employees.
Rogue employees are perhaps the most interesting, because they can see what the most intricate of defensive systems cannot, namely a crack in the armour. This is why common sense human oversight is so important.

I think the new regulations, whatever they may be, are confusing, are being interpreted and applied in different ways by different FIs, and have become a convenient excuse for whatever arbitrary measures they wish to impose. I'd like to see clear and consistent policies, so that we would all know what to expect and not be surprised by the idiosyncrasies of individual FIs. And I'd like to speak to rational human beings, not script readers.

June 28, 2019
9:08 pm
HSY
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krwilson said

She has great credit and accounts at Tangerine, Motus Bank, ScotiaBank, EQ, etc. Never had a single issue until Motive...so where is the problem, I think it's Motive.  

I agree it is motive with the problem . I have an account at Hubert which I like very much and had an account at alterna , never had this problem with either and I believe their care of client accounts is very good. The only problem with EQ is no joint accounts , if they did we’d have an account there .

June 28, 2019
9:17 pm
HSY
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Bill said
Guess it depends on your perspective, but I've been a client of Motive (and previous name) since day one and I'm kinda reassured about the security of my money when I hear stuff like that, that they're super-sticklers, even appearing to be unreasonably so to some outsiders who might not understand why they're so fussy. Seems like everybody's starting up online banks these days, just use your phone for a few minutes and you're up and running on Joe's bank, I wonder about that sometimes. Could be anybody anywhere on earth trying to open an account remotely for some surreptitious reason, maybe with stolen personal info, it's not like the old days down at the local branch.  

Happy it worked for you, but I don’t think what they are requesting here leads to any security for me , to the contrary actually . I object to having nameless strangers perusing my financial information in detail , that’s if it doesn’t get lost in the mail , after they have confirmed my first name at the top , which is all they want to confirm .- but all the remainder must be left UNREDACTED . As for online banks , people do need to do their homework of course . I Have an account with Hubert ( which is online version of Sunova credit union ) and had one also with alterna. I am very happy with Hubert , and neither of them required this, yet I feel as good as one can about the ongoing security measures they take at Hubert and alterna.

June 28, 2019
9:18 pm
HSY
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Loonie said
If only I believed that all the fallderall made our accounts secure. I don't. Bank statements, being computer generated and not watermarked, would surely be easy enough for a determined skilled fraudster to replicate.

The things that have put my and others' money and identity at risk are more to do with hacking of FI systems and rogue employees.
Rogue employees are perhaps the most interesting, because they can see what the most intricate of defensive systems cannot, namely a crack in the armour. This is why common sense human oversight is so important.

I think the new regulations, whatever they may be, are confusing, are being interpreted and applied in different ways by different FIs, and have become a convenient excuse for whatever arbitrary measures they wish to impose. I'd like to see clear and consistent policies, so that we would all know what to expect and not be surprised by the idiosyncrasies of individual FIs. And I'd like to speak to rational human beings, not script readers.  

I totally agree with you ! And that is why I am done with Motive.

June 28, 2019
9:30 pm
HSY
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Doug said
I have to respectfully disagree with you, HSY. I'm a bit perplexed by Motive Financial's willingness for you to send a copy of your Equifax credit bureau report and/or your bank or utility statements (presumably, recent ones) to confirm your identity as I more than expected you to say that they refused to open the account because they couldn't your identity based on problems with your Equifax credit bureau report (usually a fraud monitoring block, lack of credit history, or lack of recent credit history in the past three years) as another forum user, Michael, reported that was the outcome due to problems with his credit report.

So, the fact Motive Financial was willing to accept documentation from you in another manner is very encouraging and shows a willingness to work with potential clients to deliver exceptional customer service. Oaken Financial is another company that has demonstrated a similar commitment, especially with the aforementioned Michael to open up an Oaken Savings account for him.

Obviously, the reports can't be redacted, but surely they would've accepted them in a *.zip file that is either encrypted or password-protected, provided you share the password for the file under a separate cover (i.e., separate e-mail message). Alternatively, I'm sure they would've accepted a fax or, failing that, certainly snail mail.

Such is the way of our virtual banking and investment world. In fact, even Motus Bank will request copies of your existing RIF accounts showing account balance and portfolio information in order to process your transfer-in request, as Loonie can attest and assuming they actually properly process the RIF transfer-in request. 😉

Cheers,
Doug  

- just to clarify - no , I did not say that they are willing to accept a copy of my credit bureau report . They are not accepting the credit bureau report and they certainly don’t want a copy from me . They are objecting because the credit report has only my first initial listed and not my first name , so it doesn’t match with their application. Hence the requirement to send all this additional sensitive bank documentation - completely unredacted in any way, regardless that the bank or investment info has nothing to do with verifying only my first name. I also have a 22 year credit history with equifax with excellent rating of which they would be well aware as a result of their credit bureau inquiry and my spouse who lives at the same address and who equifax has with first name on file was approved to be joint on this account, providing I send in this sensitive unredacted data. Where is the common sense ?? ! I spoke to a telephone rep and an account manager, they reiterated all of this must be done in order to proceed , and no faxing , no redacting , - to confirm my first name matches my initial I must and investment or bank statements filled with confidential info and which has zero to do with simply confirming that my first name = my initial , ( which is the way equirax for some perverse reason has it listed .
What is even more laughable is I called equifax today to see about getting my first name on their credit report instead of just my first initial , and all I need to send them is a faxed photocopied drivers liscence ( not accepted by motive ) and a faxed utility bill ( fax of any documentation not accepted by motive either ) and that was reiterated to me by both the motive phone rep and motive account manager . Basically I am done with them ! - though I have written fintrac about this , to see exactly where they stand in this issue .awaiting a reply from them & depending on that reply I may write motive another email.

June 28, 2019
10:24 pm
Norman1
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The FINTRAC guidelines are here.

"Single process" identification using a credit record requires the record to be in existence for at least three years and for the name, address, and date of birth to match.

Should that not be possible, a "dual process" identification is required. Original paper or digital documents are required:

What is an acceptable original document?

If you are referring to a document you are using as part of the dual process method, you must ensure that you see the original paper or electronic document and not a copy. The original document is the one that the individual received or obtained from the issuer either through posted mail or electronically. The document must appear to be valid and unaltered in order to be acceptable. If any information has been redacted, it is not acceptable.

For example, an original paper document can be a utility statement mailed to an individual by the utility provider. Whereas an original electronic document is one an individual received through email or by downloading it directly from the issuer’s website.

An individual can email you the original electronic document they received or downloaded, show you the document on their electronic device (for example, a smartphone, tablet, or laptop), print the electronic document received or downloaded from the issuer, or show you in the original format such as .pdf (Adobe) or .xps (Microsoft viewer).

I also don't see how the name, with only the initial of first name, matches the full name. I think it would be negligent to use a credit file for "B. Smith" born 1972-02-13 as confirmation of the existence and identity of someone claiming to be "Bob Smith" also born 1972-02-13.

Maybe that "B. Smith" credit file is actually for "Brittany Smith" or "Barbara Smith" and "Bob Smith" is actually the name of the family dog! sf-surprised

June 29, 2019
7:19 am
Doug
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HSY said

I agree it is motive with the problem . I have an account at Hubert which I like very much and had an account at alterna , never had this problem with either and I believe their care of client accounts is very good. The only problem with EQ is no joint accounts , if they did we’d have an account there .  

EQ Bank has a number of different issues I don't like. For instance, their banking infrastructure is showing how cobbled together it is, as they use a slimmed-down version of MemberDirect from Central 1 to provide just Interac e-Transfers. They also don't specify the destination or origin on EFT transfers out/in and, most bizarrely and off side with established banking norms, their e-Statements are arranged in reverse order. Very disappointed in all of these. I intend to raise these key issues, demand they be fixed as "bugs" in their system, and if they don't, I won't have any reservations to closing my accounts and never going back. Motive Financial, Alterna Bank, Manulife Bank, and Tangerine Bank would provide everything I need and then some.

Cheers,
Doug

June 29, 2019
7:30 am
Doug
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Thanks, Norman, for quoting the relevant passages of FINTRAC guidelines, as I hadn't looked them up for my post.

In answer to your further question, HSY, while you may dislike it, unfortunately the reason you're being asked to verify your identity through an alternative method is likely because the fuller form of your first name is not on your credit bureau. You can update your credit reports free of charge with TransUnion and Equifax, if you're willing to fill out a short form and photocopy your government-issued photo ID showing the fuller form of name. You should be thankful Motive provided this alternate method, as Michael reported them turning him down outright due to problems verifying his credit bureau information. Note, though, that unless you tell them otherwise, they'll update your first, middle, and last names as specified on your photo ID. There may be provision to opt out of them adding your middle name to your credit bureau report.

Having only an initial on your credit bureau report actually puts you at greater risk of identity theft as now a fraudster need only match the first initial of your first name and your date of birth, so being concerned with security, it's something worth considering updating.

Yes, Hubert was able to verify you using a different method, but they do a TransUnion credit bureau report (which may differ from your Equifax credit bureau report that Motive uses) and they also use micro-deposits. Every bank uses different ID validation requirements, but there's an opening banking & digital ID movement afoot to update legislation to (a) allow customers to share their banking details with third-parties and other financial institutions (i.e., Mint and fintechs) validate their identities and open accounts and (b) aggregate, digitize, and/or centralize various provincial government ID repositories to allow banks and credit unions, with consumers' consent, to access their personal information with provincial governments. In short, our ID and personal information is about to become a lot more shared. sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

June 29, 2019
8:01 am
HSY
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Doug said
Thanks, Norman, for quoting the relevant passages of FINTRAC guidelines, as I hadn't looked them up for my post.

In answer to your further question, HSY, while you may dislike it, unfortunately the reason you're being asked to verify your identity through an alternative method is likely because the fuller form of your first name is not on your credit bureau. You can update your credit reports free of charge with TransUnion and Equifax, if you're willing to fill out a short form and photocopy your government-issued photo ID showing the fuller form of name. You should be thankful Motive provided this alternate method, as Michael reported them turning him down outright due to problems verifying his credit bureau information. Note, though, that unless you tell them otherwise, they'll update your first, middle, and last names as specified on your photo ID. There may be provision to opt out of them adding your middle name to your credit bureau report.

Having only an initial on your credit bureau report actually puts you at greater risk of identity theft as now a fraudster need only match the first initial of your first name and your date of birth, so being concerned with security, it's something worth considering updating.

Yes, Hubert was able to verify you using a different method, but they do a TransUnion credit bureau report (which may differ from your Equifax credit bureau report that Motive uses) and they also use micro-deposits. Every bank uses different ID validation requirements, but there's an opening banking & digital ID movement afoot to update legislation to (a) allow customers to share their banking details with third-parties and other financial institutions (i.e., Mint and fintechs) validate their identities and open accounts and (b) aggregate, digitize, and/or centralize various provincial government ID repositories to allow banks and credit unions, with consumers' consent, to access their personal information with provincial governments. In short, our ID and personal information is about to become a lot more shared. sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug  

Transunion has my full name, but Motive does not use transunion. Interestingly Hubert did verify me through equifax, but i believe i had to send a void cheque in or something similar, it was a couple years ago. However it was nothing as intrusive as what is required by Motive, and i still completely object to having strangers review all of my financial information on my statements after they have taken less than 2 seconds to confirm my name and address and account number at the top of the page, which is all they actually require .You do raise a good point regarding the increased security of having my full name on record with equifax and i do plan to get it corrected. Funny that equifax requires less info than Motive! I had thought of the issue of NOT wanting my middle names added and planned to put that note on the documents i send. however no guarantee they will actually manage to get that right, and wouldnt surprise me if i didnt have to contact them again to correct their new update - given the questonable "accuracy " of some of the information i have seen in the past , both with equifax and transunion

June 29, 2019
11:04 am
Norman1
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Credit reporting agencies, like Equifax and TransUnion, are not subject to FINTRAC reporting requirements.

As a result, they can to accept a photocopy or fax of a drivers license and then contact the provincial Ministry of Transportation to verify the information on the copy.

They are not naive. They know that one can scan a drivers license, edit the details in an image editor (like Adobe Photoshop or GIMP), and print a "photocopy".

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