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Email this8:17 pm
August 4, 2010
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Norman1 said
4420 - $0.811 - ATON Movement Charge to both deliverer and receiver for a CDSX trade generated by ATON
4430 - $0.1351 ATON Confirmed Asset Charge to both deliverer and receiver per confirmed assetATON fees will only be around $2 from each side for a simple one-item ATON transfer of a cash balance: $0.91 + $0.135.
For an account with 30 CDS-handled holdings, it will be $0.91 + 30 * ($0.135 + $0.81) = $29.26 from both institutions.
Is that 4420 charge ($0.811) actually per delivered position? There's already the 4430 charge for confirmed asset lines (which will presumably be delivered), and the 4420 wording is for "CDSX trade generated by ATON". Might it only be charged for those positions where the request is to sell to cash, either because it is unsupported by the receiver or otherwise marked as "sell for cash"? That would bring the example down to as low as $4.96 per side if all positions came across in-kind, as would likely be common?
In any case, there's legitimate questions about internal costs and resources for transfers, whether capping or eliminating fees might spur investment in more efficient procedures, whether a government mandate is the right way to achieve this, or whatever.
I think the less self-serving part of the fintech submissions involves transfer times. My non-ATON registered transfers over the years (Hubert, Oaken, bank or life insurance GRRSP) have generally involved a fax from acquirer to relinquisher, and a paper cheque via Canada Post coming back. Certainly some of these institutions seem to internally process such transactions with, shall we say, great deliberation (cough, Canada Life, cough), and one's registered funds can be in limbo for potentially a few weeks. It would be nice if there had been some sort of incentive to develop a process to bundle the required paperwork and an electronic payment together to avoid actually shipping paper via mail, or other incentives to speed up this process, but given the reporting and institutional inertia, I'm not terribly hopeful.
5:32 am
November 18, 2017
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Saying people ought to look out for themselves doesn't apply when the terms and conditions change on them after their cash is in the till!
Saying people should take care in selecting places to deposit cash ignores the fact that in most cases there's no way to tell if there's financial risk at any particular institution until it's too late. That's different in equity markets; "buyer beware" is the norm, as are large, unpredictable losses. Look at recent gold prices! (I wonder whether the ups and downs in US trade policy provide good insider trading opportunities for US politicians and connected friends of insiders...)
This reminds me of US right-wingers wanting to let people make their own choices for health care or primary/secondary schooling - most people aren't in a position to understand their own medical issues or move to where a good school is available. And it's been proven world-wide that deterrent fees for health care increase costs and morbidity. The beneficiaries of user-choice policies
If the financial institutions don't want "rate-shoppers" bouncing their dollars around, why do they offer promos? They know they sometimes have to pay more for short-term money.
RetirEd
6:05 am
April 27, 2017
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Wealthsimple and IBKR somehow manage transfers out of their brokerages without charging a cent, so the argument of “poor us are incurring massive costs which needs to be covered” is obvious bs. In reality these charges are being increased when technology is improving as an anticompetitive measure.
8:48 am
March 15, 2019
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What do you think?
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politic.....-minister/
8:51 am
April 6, 2013
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NorthernRaven said
Is that 4420 charge ($0.811) actually per delivered position? There's already the 4430 charge for confirmed asset lines (which will presumably be delivered), and the 4420 wording is for "CDSX trade generated by ATON". Might it only be charged for those positions where the request is to sell to cash, either because it is unsupported by the receiver or otherwise marked as "sell for cash"? That would bring the example down to as low as $4.96 per side if all positions came across in-kind, as would likely be common?
Yes, that $0.81 charge is for each delivered CDS-eligible position. That is for the non-exchange trades that ATON generates and sends to Canadian Depository for Securities (CDS) to actually deliver the securities to the receiver's dealer account there.
ATON helps with the back and forth (steps 1, 2, and 3 in ATON – Account Transfer Online Notification) between the deliverer and receiver to agree on the assets to be transferred.
Once the deliverer and receiver agree, ATON will generated the trades for CDS (for Canadian securities), DTC (for US securities), and FundSERV (for mutual funds) to actually move the assets that are there (step 4). Other assets in the transfer are tracked by ATON but have to be moved by other means.
It is quite a bit of overhead. In addition to a hookup to ATON, the participants need settlement accounts at CDS, DTC, and FundSERV. All that is hard to justify for a smaller institution that just offers GIC's.
National Bank Direct Brokerage shares that most of its incoming transfers are non-ATON:
Transfers via non-ATON users
Transfers coming from institutions that do not participate in the ATON system must be processed manually. This represents about 60% of requests.
The estimated timelines for receiving assets (once the transfer request is sent to the delivering institution or a GIC expires) are as follows:
Banks / Caisses
populairesMutual fund
companiesTrusts / Insurance
companiesEmployers / Pension funds /
Government agencies10-20 days 10-20 days 10-20 days 20-40 days
9:11 am
April 6, 2013
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NorthernRaven said
…
I think the less self-serving part of the fintech submissions involves transfer times. My non-ATON registered transfers over the years (Hubert, Oaken, bank or life insurance GRRSP) have generally involved a fax from acquirer to relinquisher, and a paper cheque via Canada Post coming back. Certainly some of these institutions seem to internally process such transactions with, shall we say, great deliberation (cough, Canada Life, cough), and one's registered funds can be in limbo for potentially a few weeks. It would be nice if there had been some sort of incentive to develop a process to bundle the required paperwork and an electronic payment together to avoid actually shipping paper via mail, or other incentives to speed up this process, but given the reporting and institutional inertia, I'm not terribly hopeful.
Faxes and mailed paper cheques don't require any additional agreement from the financial institutions.
Payments Canada has already upgraded wire transfers to be able to include richer data with the transfer. Real-time Rail transfers will be able to carry richer data.
That richer data cannot be a PDF or scan of a transfer from. Everyone needs to agree what that richer ISO 20022 data will be for something like an RRSP transfer.
10:40 am
September 11, 2013
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RetirEd, when an institution is increasing or bringing in a new fee there is always advance notice so you can move your stuff out before that, so not buying the victim narrative on that one.
11:04 am
August 4, 2010
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Norman1 said
Yes, that $0.81 charge is for each delivered CDS-eligible position. That is for the non-exchange trades that ATON generates and sends to Canadian Depository for Securities (CDS) to actually deliver the securities to the receiver's dealer account there.Once the deliverer and receiver agree, ATON will generated the trades for CDS (for Canadian securities), DTC (for US securities), and FundSERV (for mutual funds) to actually move the assets that are there (step 4). Other assets in the transfer are tracked by ATON but have to be moved by other means.
Yeah, I was wondering if "trade" meant something like "clearing/registration (without market component) necessary to transfer item between participants".
Norman1 said
Faxes and mailed paper cheques don't require any additional agreement from the financial institutions.Payments Canada has already upgraded wire transfers to be able to include richer data with the transfer. Real-time Rail transfers will be able to carry richer data.
That richer data cannot be a PDF or scan of a transfer from. Everyone needs to agree what that richer ISO 20022 data will be for something like an RRSP transfer.
As someone who in a previous life had at least tangential involvement in data formatting and production agreements among multiple agencies, I feel the pain of that "needs to agree"... 🙂
I remember had an EQ->Wealthsimple FHSA transfer in the last couple of years that went amazingly quickly. I assumed it was just transfer desks with time on their hands and a quick intra-Toronto cheque delivery, but I suppose some of the sprightlier institutions could be using mutually agreed-upon electronic alternatives.
I had a rather bollixed TFSA transfer from Wealthsimple to Hubert recently, and one of the things that came up from Wealthsimple was whether Hubert supported "A$M", which appears to be FundServ's ad-hoc dealer money transfer program, which supports "non-trade instructions" and lists in-cash registered transfers as a use-case. So Wealthsimple (and perhaps that incoming EQ FHSA) may have the capability to do registered cash transfers electronically is some cases. Unfortunately, Hubert is still reliant on Red River carts to Selkirk (although their customer service remains excellent), so that was still a paper cheque.
1:11 pm
April 27, 2017
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Bill said
RetirEd, when an institution is increasing or bringing in a new fee there is always advance notice so you can move your stuff out before that, so not buying the victim narrative on that one.
TD Direct Investing raised its RRSP and TFSA transfer-out fees from $75 to $150 per account, effective July 1, 2025. They did announce the change on their website in locations accessible to clients a few weeks prior (around mid-May 2025) via a fee schedule update, but it was done “quietly” without individual client notices or emails. As of May 2025 I was with TDDI and received no direct communication from them whatsoever.
Everybody knows that people don’t just reread the terms daily. The fee was escalated very deliberately. They and others who practice this type of underhand nonsense should be held to account. Not OK.
They are not alone using this kind of predatory and uncompetitive behaviour.
https://money.ca/investing/hik.....-exit-fees
P.S. looks like EQ does not charge exit fees either. Obviously better run organizations don’t need to try and stifle the market
2:33 pm
March 30, 2017
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To me, when they offer outsized promo to attract new customers, its only sensible that they will charge a fee if one decides to move their account, nothing wrong with that.
They are businesses, not charities. Speaking of that, so called charities are some of the worst run organizations, with less than 50cents of the donation actually goes to actually benefit the needy. Take a look at how much CEO of united way makes a year...
3:14 pm
August 4, 2010
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mordko said
TD Direct Investing raised its RRSP and TFSA transfer-out fees from $75 to $150 per account, effective July 1, 2025. They did announce the change on their website in locations accessible to clients a few weeks prior (around mid-May 2025) via a fee schedule update, but it was done “quietly” without individual client notices or emails. As of May 2025 I was with TDDI and received no direct communication from them whatsoever.P.S. looks like EQ does not charge exit fees either. Obviously better run organizations don’t need to try and stifle the market
I'm not sure this is correct? I'm a little too lazy to dig for old statements or archived fee pages, but I'm almost certain that as far back as late 2023 when I did TDDI->Wealthsimple transfers they were at the $150 (plus tax) level, and had been for awhile before that? Usually the brokerages are pretty much in lockstep on their transfer out fees (now $150), and Wealthsimple is the only one I know that doesn't charge them (maybe IBKR?).
Non-brokerage registered transfers (banks, CUs, GRRSPs at Life Cos) are usually in the $50-75 range, where they exist. EQ/Oaken/Peoples/Hubert are all no-fee institutions; Tangerine was but brought in a transfer-out fee years ago. Given the slow progress and lack of return during a registered transfer, I avoid doing much of that, but I have had GICs at all of those in the last 15 years (mostly Oaken and a bit of Hubert the last few years). These non-brokerage transfers are probably smaller average amounts than someone's brokerage portfolio, and some combination of costs and desire for stickiness / competitive inertia has the brokerages charging the higher rate.
3:48 pm
March 17, 2018
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NorthernRaven said
Non-brokerage registered transfers (banks, CUs, GRRSPs at Life Cos) are usually in the $50-75 range, where they exist. EQ/Oaken/Peoples/Hubert are all no-fee institutions; .
Also Achieva and Manulife Bank don't presently charge transfer out fees
3:50 pm
August 4, 2010
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Did a quick archive check, and TDDI's transfer fee was $150 in 2020, and $135 as long ago as March 2016.
I think you meant TD's banking side (TD Canada Trust), not the TDDI brokerage side. They did a bunch of changes last year (I remember the bump in the waiver amount on my chequing account), and one apparently was that nasty $75->$150 jump in transfer out fees, locking their customers even tighter to overpriced mutual funds or underwhelming savings interest... 🙂
6:51 pm
September 11, 2013
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That's interesting, mordko, and not my experience at all with TDDI, been with them for a few decades now. I've always received notice, either in the general mail to everyone on various topics when I log in to Webroker or to my email account on file, if there is a new fees and commissions schedule coming out.
It would also be against their published policy, in their TDDI Commission Schedule and Statement of Disclosure of Rates and Fees, the latest of which includes in the small print near the end of it "commissions and interest rates are subject to change without notice. All other rates and fees are subject to change upon 60 days prior notice".
I've never found it necessary to review any institution's fees, etc on a regular basis to see if there's a change, I've always been notified ahead of time one way or the other (even paper snail mail sometimes in the old days) when there are upcoming changes. Maybe you can contact TDDI to let them know you are being missed somehow.
2:03 am
November 18, 2017
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Bill: That advance notice does not help those holding GIC products, and it is not of a predictable time in advance. And it's usually a pretty quiet announcement buried in pages of terms.
I got whacked with a just-added $50 transfer-out fee when I left Tangerine years ago. I had a TF-GIC in place when they inposed the fee and there was no dodging it. And it had to come out of my TFSA, reducing my TFSA savings for all eternity. Tangerine had been on a raging fee-sprouting spree for some time after ING gave up.
Also note mordko's comments.
savemoresaveoften: It's not "sensible" - it's sleazy! Those offering short-term deals often expect clients to leave after, and many have term lock-ins as a result. Like the rapacious phone and internet promotions with long-term contracts and NO limit on price changes.
RetirEd
6:24 am
September 11, 2013
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RetirEd, I agree, when you lock your money in GICs that can happen over that time.
A tip: Not a big GIC guy myself, I'm very uncomfortable locking my money up in this day and age, but that's something I would know when I decided to lock my money up in a registered account if it was important to me. I would have cleared that up, i.e. whether my registered account is grandfathered to the old fee schedule or be subject to a new one in the event I transfer it elsewhere, BEFORE I bought the GIC.
Just part of the due diligence of buying a locked in product in a registered account.
12:29 pm
February 16, 2023
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COIN said
"“Despite efficiencies provided by technology (electronic transfers cost Wealthsimple less than $2 to process) exit fees have ballooned:"The marginal cost might be minimal but the cost to build and maintain that tachnology/infrastructure can be expensive.
Reminds me of the specious argument that smart phones are over-priced because the parts cost <$10. Completely overlooks hundreds, if not thousands, of scientists engineers and designers working for years to perfect and test prototypes and bring them to market.
While it may be that a transaction costs WS a couple of bucks, millions have been spent developing the technology behind it. That technology must be 100% secure and infallible. Haven't we all seen the whiners on social media that "it's been 15 minutes and the money I transferred hasn't arrived", "it's 4:00am on Sunday morning and I can't log-in to my account – my money has disappeared".
I do expect the govt to follow-through on its promise, though a spring 2026 seems wildly optimistic. Draft regs need to be written, published, time allowed for feedback [of which there will be lots], final regs written, approved, effective date set.....been there, done that for a living for decades. In the end, financial institutions large and small must make a profit for their investors/owners and these transfer fees will be replaced by another revenue source [most likely buried in account/fund management costs] and everyone will pay for the few who get their jollies switching institutions every year or less.
12:55 pm
April 27, 2017
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countysaver said
“Reminds me of the specious argument that smart phones are over-priced because the parts cost $10. Completely overlooks hundreds, if not thousands, of scientists engineers and designers working for years to perfect and test prototypes and bring them to market.’
Apparently, the actual net manufacturing cost (bill of materials or BOM) for an iPhone 17 Pro Max is estimated at around $408–$480 USD.
But that’s not the issue here. Apple, Samsung, Xiaomi, OPPO, Vivo, Huawei, Google, Motorola, Sony, OnePlus, Realme, Honor, Nokia (HMD Global), Asus, Infinix, Tecno, LG, Lenovo, ZTE, Alcatel, TCL, Sharp, Panasonic, Micromax, Lava, Karbonn, Gionee, Meizu, Coolpad, LeEco, BLU, Fairphone, Nothing, Wiko, Cat, Vertu, Kyocera, Fujitsu, Doogee, Ulefone, Oukitel, AGM, iQOO, Nubia, RedMagic and others wouldn’t dream of charging customers for changing a phone to another manufacturer. Its a competitive market. Each segment of the market is well served and manufacturing cost reductions are likely to reduce the sale price as manufacturers are fighting for the market share.
In the case of large Canadian banks, they are charging for exit and increasing that charge exponentially when their costs for this service are falling. Because the purpose is anti-competitive and they are acting in a heavily regulated and limited market.
Please write your comments in the forum.