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BoC's Next Interest Rate Announcement . . .
September 5, 2023
1:26 pm
savemoresaveoften
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cgouimet said

So, you buy or build a house. Maybe live in it a while. Maybe not.

You decide to sell. Are you going to ask what you paid or market value? Probably the higher of the two although the buyer would rather the lower of the two ... 🙂  

How is that even comparable to developers who get the land for cheap from our government ?!
So u support developers get a big gift from Ford in terms of cheap land, and then turn around to sell them at market price, and then say that is to help affordable housing ?? What kind is twisted logic is that.

You do realize the developers are the biggest winner by far I hope…

September 5, 2023
2:00 pm
mordko
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I think the houses have to be sold at market price. Otherwise its a gift to whoever buys; they could sell right away and make a handsome profit for no good reason.

Also, no houses will be built in the foreseeable future on this land so its all theoretical. Developers who bought in using inside info should not be allowed to make a cent. The process was badly screwed up. Police is investigating and a part of me is hoping that someone will go to prison for this level of blatant corruption.

September 5, 2023
2:59 pm
Wrayzor
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savemoresaveoften said

How is that even comparable to developers who get the land for cheap from our government ?!
So u support developers get a big gift from Ford in terms of cheap land, and then turn around to sell them at market price, and then say that is to help affordable housing ?? What kind is twisted logic is that.

You do realize the developers are the biggest winner by far I hope…  

I don't deny shenanigans are happening. But the ON government didn't sell the land to the developers. They already owned it. Speculators, for the most part. They got the shady bureaucrats to grant the exemption. May be seen as a subtle difference, but different nonetheless.

I'm not sure DF has ever said "affordable" housing. Just housing to support the half million entrants to the province.

Somebody is always going to "win". In a capitalist economy, it's almost always those with the capital to risk.

September 5, 2023
4:08 pm
cgouimet
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savemoresaveoften said

How is that even comparable to developers who get the land for cheap from our government ?!
So u support developers get a big gift from Ford in terms of cheap land, and then turn around to sell them at market price, and then say that is to help affordable housing ?? What kind is twisted logic is that.

You do realize the developers are the biggest winner by far I hope…  

No. I don't support the deal bet Ford and developers. I was simply commenting on your objection to buying low and selling high. Cheating to buy cheap isn't right.

CGO
September 5, 2023
4:14 pm
mordko
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Wrayzor said

I don't deny shenanigans are happening. But the ON government didn't sell the land to the developers. They already owned it.   

The government didn’t sell the land. But developers bought it recently, since this government came to power. And they were in direct private discussions with decision makers, influencing which parcels would be rezoned. Its either corruption or extreme stupidity and I doubt they are sufficiently stupid.

September 6, 2023
7:30 am
UkrainianDude
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Bank of Canada did as was asked by at least two politicians (coincidence or not, no one knows). No rate increases.

September 6, 2023
7:35 am
mordko
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If they continue like this, BoC might be forced to raise rates to assert credibility and independence.

September 6, 2023
9:14 am
Dean
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UkrainianDude said

Bank of Canada did as was asked by at least two politicians (coincidence or not, no one knows). No rate increases.  

Yup , as most of us expected. And we can bet it was a 'Coincidence', for Sure!

Cover Story, from BNN: https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/bank-of-canada-holds-rates-at-5-sees-excess-demand-easing-1.1967700

Cheerio 4 Now,

    Dean

sf-cool " Live Long, Healthy ... And Prosper! " sf-cool

September 6, 2023
9:50 am
HermanH
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UkrainianDude said
Bank of Canada did as was asked by at least two politicians (coincidence or not, no one knows). No rate increases.

Next, they will predict that the sun rises in the East and claim credit for forcing it to do so.

mordko said
If they continue like this, BoC might be forced to raise rates to assert credibility and independence.  

Yup.

September 6, 2023
10:54 am
savemoresaveoften
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HermanH said
Yup.  

Thats exactly it. the 2 premiers are just shameless. Basically they only have upside doing it. If BoC still hike, they will say its all wrong and tried their best. if BoC stays put, the premiers come out and take full credit....

September 6, 2023
11:20 am
cgouimet
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savemoresaveoften said

Thats exactly it. the 2 premiers are just shameless. Basically they only have upside doing it. If BoC still hike, they will say its all wrong and tried their best. if BoC stays put, the premiers come out and take full credit....  

Pretending to go all out for the people, or as they in QC, for the population...

CGO
September 6, 2023
11:44 am
JohnnyCash
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savemoresaveoften said

Thats exactly it. the 2 premiers are just shameless. Basically they only have upside doing it. If BoC still hike, they will say its all wrong and tried their best. if BoC stays put, the premiers come out and take full credit....  

The cynical side of me had me thinking just that after the BoC announcement.

September 6, 2023
1:41 pm
Wrayzor
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mordko said

The government didn’t sell the land. But developers bought it recently, since this government came to power. And they were in direct private discussions with decision makers, influencing which parcels would be rezoned. Its either corruption or extreme stupidity and I doubt they are sufficiently stupid.  

Your quote omitted the part of my post that essentially agrees with your thoughts. "They got the shady bureaucrats to grant the exemption."

None of this passes the smell test, but I'm not yet willing to rule rule out extreme stupidity as this is not an unknown attribute of the current regime.

Back to BOC interest rating setting. I'm positive that it was the letter from the premier of NL that tipped the scale to holding the rate (/sarcasm).

September 6, 2023
2:18 pm
cgouimet
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JohnnyCash said

The cynical side of me had me thinking just that after the BoC announcement.  

I was hoping Tiff wouldn't send the Premiers a PET salute and raise .. sf-wink

CGO
September 6, 2023
10:51 pm
Loonie
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Am I the only one who thinks it was inappropriate for the premiers to attempt to interfere in this? BoC is supposed to function independently of politics; also, the BoC people know perfectly well what is going on in the country already.

September 6, 2023
11:07 pm
cgouimet
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Loonie said
Am I the only one who thinks it was inappropriate for the premiers to attempt to interfere in this? BoC is supposed to function independently of politics; also, the BoC people know perfectly well what is going on in the country already.  

Absolutely not. Many here, including me, have already stated it was inappropriate. Many have also stated that it was useless since Tiff is definitely talking political direction. In all cases, especially Doug Ford, it was pure grandstanding pandering to their base and attempting to redirect attention away from problems of their own making.

I'm surprised Danielle Smith hasn't declared increased lending rates unconstitutional. Maybe she did and I missed it...

CGO
September 7, 2023
12:35 am
RetirEd
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I've already said I think any attempt by provincial governments (or politicians) to affect BoC policy is inappropriate. And yes, the result is a "coincidence," which means happening at the same time - it is ALSO a "CHANCE coincidence," unless one figures in the probability that the three provincial prime ministers were deliberately predicting the obvious for political gain.

UkrainianDude: The Green Belt is not an institution, but rather a designated area of land that legally cannot be redeveloped away from farmland. It's called a "belt" because it's an arc that separates near-Toronto land from further-away-from-Toronto land. Here in BC we have a similar area known as the Agricultural Land Reserve (ALR). Such preserves must be carefully manage because of the potential for corrupt practices. In general, investors usually propose to swap protected land for unprotected land they own - at a big value difference for the investor - rather than outright remove lands from the reserves.

(I am going to try to be careful in using "inside" or "outside" to mean closer to Toronto or further from Toronto, as opposed to "comprising part of" and "not comprising part of.")

Doug Ford promised in the recent past to never touch the Green Belt. But the Ontario PC party has a decades-long history of favoring its business cronies in land policy. When the Green Belt was created, the value of property closer to Toronto but not comprising part of the Green Belt got a huge bump - because the commuting times between inside-the-belt and outside-the-belt were so different! There was no longer a smooth gradation of values with travel distance.

Similarly, land further out than the Green Belt but not comprising part of it plummeted in value, because the longer commutes made it residentially unattractive.

That meant that long-term investors could buy that land cheaply and then make a killing if they could get it removed from protection. We saw the same here in BC's ALR; one company convinced the province to let them build a golf course on ALR land, claiming that it was being preserved as "green" despite no longer producing food. The idea was that it could easily be turned back into farmland as there was no major paving and building going on. They let the course deteriorate until they got a friendly governing party, then appealed to free the land for development because it didn't seem viable as a golf course. Instant millions!

There are always property gamblers willing to take protected lands for the long-term opportunity to unprotect them. Such deals are often enough to create a lifetime of wealth in one big gulp.

In the current Ontario case, the insider investors didn't even intend to develop the land to create more housing at all! As soon as they thought their lands freed from development freezes, they put it on the market to sell at a fantastic profit to a developer who would then have to develop and sell at a significant disadvantage - since they'd be buying at a much-inflated price, all the profit having been taken by the Ford cronies.

That was the final straw that blew the deal up in Ford's face. And he and the Ontario Tories are still standing by the initial plan to de-protect the land!

There is, of course, no need for Green Belt lands to build new housing on. There is lots of non-protected land to develop all over southern Ontario.

This is one of the largest and sleaziest money plays by rich lobbyists in Canadian history. Let's hope the media keep at it until the deal is killed, and perhaps the current Ontario PC government as well.

RetirEd

September 7, 2023
4:19 am
mordko
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Worth noting that its not just the irrelevant provincial but also federal politicians and leaders of certain parties who are making ignorant and inappropriate statements undermining BoC’s independence. And that makes me wonder if high inflation will stay around a wee bit longer thanks to their efforts.

September 7, 2023
4:52 am
mordko
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There is, of course, no need for Green Belt lands to build new housing on. There is lots of non-protected land to develop all over southern Ontario.

I’ve seen these claims but not sure they are accurate. In a literal sense,yes, the are. Of course; Ontario is large.

In practice, people need to be able to travel to work in a reasonable period of time. Which limits the area quite dramatically. Built up area south of the belt can be developed too. But getting permits is hard. Municipalities have voters and voters in effluent Toronto hoods don’t want development. You can also build up existing areas with single family dwellings. Toronto houses are way too small outside the centre. Same problem. People living there don’t want condos around them. And many people looking for housing want single family dwellings with large footage.

In the end we have a very real problem. Huge numbers of people are moving to Toronto. But Toronto can’t grow because of various constraints.

The way Greenbelt land was redesignated was corrupt but I can see what was driving it. It's hard to square the circle.

September 7, 2023
8:47 am
cgouimet
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Many here will also recall that those Premiers helped fuel inflation. E.G...

Spending COVID funding not on supporting Health and Long-Term Care but rather in unnecessary Highways.

Sprinkling 'inflation fuel' to all income levels to buy votes in an incoming election.

CGO
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