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Tangerine credit card World
January 19, 2021
3:16 pm
Max
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Just received my Tangerine World accredit card and decided to cancel my corporation credit card.

I have 175$ annual fees on my National Bank Corp credit card for 1% reward program. I thought the 6000 points to buy something I could find at $200 on eBay was abusive.

I had MBNA Smart Cash when I was a student.
I loved it because it gave 2% on everything above $600.

Now, I downgraded back to just a personal credit card and the Tangerine World version to have rental car location insurance car coverage when I travel to USA or Europe for conferences. Might not travel for the next 2 years though.

I was wondering if anybody else had found any more cost efficient credit card out there than the Tangerine?

The day you become free is the day you work for fun.

January 19, 2021
6:56 pm
Loonie
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I don't have anything specific to recommend, but I would just caution you to read the provisions on the Tangerine car rental insurance carefully (or on any other card you might be considering). Sometimes it is hard to get hold of these in advance of applying, but, if you persist, you should be able to in most cases.

I don't know what the provision is on that particular card but, in general, the weakness of many if not all of the inexpensive cards that offer car rental insurance is that this insurance is only "secondary", meaning that if you need to use it, you must first claim against any and all other existing policies that you may hold which could cover it. This causes a lot of extra work and it will put you in a bad situation with respect to your other insurer.

Some policies actually specify that they are "primary" (desired) or "secondary" coverage. Others have wording to the effect that they pay out after other insurers have paid.

I can't offer a lot of detail on this as I don't know a lot more and haven't rented a car in a long time, but we used to rent them frequently and always made sure we got primary insurance from our credit card. One of the people i got to know at the car rental company (because we were such frequent users) verified this and said we had a good card. He said they'd had some customers who were very upset and disappointed when it turned out their credit card insurance wasn't really much use.

We continue to pay a fee for our card because we like the insurance package and have benefited from it significantly over the years.

I think that in this case the bargain deal isn't necessarily the best one, and that it's reasonable to expect to pay for decent insurance. It's still quite inexpensive.

I have the impression all credit cards are tightening their rewards systems, and they don't always announce it in a way that gets your attention, so you need to keep an eye on it. They will also change the insurance policies from time to time without necessarily telling you. It's wise to ask for a new set of policies every year or so, to ensure you are up to date.

January 19, 2021
9:09 pm
Norman1
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The certificates of insurance for the Tangerine MasterCard cards are at Tangerine Credit Card Cardholder Agreement.

January 20, 2021
1:15 am
Loonie
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Thanks, Norman.

Page 28 does indicate that this is Primary insurance, so Max has made a good choice for car insurance coverage!

January 20, 2021
9:39 am
MG
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You may also wish to contact your personal car insurance company. I pay $60 a year and am fully covered for all rental car damage. I also have insurance through my Gold Visa card which is no longer being offered. This way I never have to purchase insurance at the car rental office.

January 20, 2021
12:18 pm
Loonie
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MG said
You may also wish to contact your personal car insurance company. I pay $60 a year and am fully covered for all rental car damage. I also have insurance through my Gold Visa card which is no longer being offered. This way I never have to purchase insurance at the car rental office.  

That is certainly an option, but if you have to make a claim it will count against your record with your insurer. The great advantage of PRIMARY credit card insurance is that it never appears on your insurance record (which would probably cost you more in the long run). Technically, CC insurance is not insurance. It's a waiver, but functions as insurance.

January 23, 2021
10:22 am
Norman1
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It's those rental car agency collision damage or loss damage waivers that are not insurance.

The credit card rental car collision/loss damage coverage is often actual insurance. The coverage from the Tangerine World MasterCard is.

Don't count on the claim not appearing on one's insurance record. If the damage was from an accident, the accident will be reported and appear on one's driving record. One's regular car insurance company will find out.

Agents at car rental places often lie about the "no record" to sell their waivers. I had a close look at the fine print of one car rental contract. The waivers mean that the rental agency waives the right to recover cost of repairs and damage from the renter. But, the agency does not waive the right to claim against any car insurance the renter has!

January 23, 2021
2:09 pm
Loonie
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That's interesting, Norman.
I am not a lawyer but my interpretation of the business about still being able to claim from your insurance (possibly) would make the CLDW into Secondary insurance, whereas Tangerine says it's Primary.
In support of what you are saying, however, I have never seen a CC that offered Primary car rental insurance and did not charge an annual fee, so I was quite surprised that Tangerine appeared to do so. That is actually why I brought up this issue in the first place, because I thought it wasn't likely to be good insurance.
I would want a legal opinion about their right to go after your insurance. I would think it would be impossible to do this if the driver did not have that rider on their policy which covers driving other cars as the insurer never said they would cover any car you rented. Car insurance is rated according to both the car and the driver, so, as far as I know, it doesn't apply to other cars you may drive unless you buy the rider to which MG referred.
Perhaps you are a lawyer?
Can you point to any examples where this has become an issue?

In the absence of legal assistance, one might be able to get further clarification from talking to the issuer of the CC's policy. In the past I have found that it is possible to get through to these people if you persist, and they will answer questions and are knowledgeable.

It's funny you should mention this though. Once, in the many many times we rented, we did have some minor damage to the car. I no longer remember how it happened but it wasn't an accident per se. Even though we had good CC insurance, I opted to just pay for it as I still didn't trust the CC waiver/insurance. Somehow it seemed too good to be true, and I definitely didn't want it on my personal insurance record.

On the other hand, although I have not rented for a few years, I do recall that some rental companies were getting quite sticky about checking your driving record before letting you rent a car. This suggests they believed they would be responsible for damage.

The best car rental deal may be for those who don't own a car as there is no policy to transfer the claim to! We were in that situation, by choice, for about five years. We rented every weekend and never bought their insurance. Saved about $5k/yr, even compared to what CAA says it costs to own a car.

Something else to think about: the rider may cover you for liability. I think that in Canada Liability is covered in the car rental agreement at no extra cost. But in some jurisdictions this may not be the case.
I once rented a car in California for 3 weeks and discovered afterwards that I had had only $25K liability insurance during that period, having confidently turned down insurance without reading the fine print - a scary thought, especially in the ever-litigious U.S. of A. Fortunately I didn't have any incidents. The car rental company had given me a big fat white Lincoln with all bells and whistles, which I did not want, but their entire lot was full of them, so I had no choice. I felt very conspicuous driving it, and somewhat vulnerable in the seedier areas that I sometimes ended up in unintentionally. I feared I might look like the local drug lord, come to collect! But that's tinsel town for you - everyone gotta have a white Lincoln, I guess!

January 24, 2021
8:55 pm
Norman1
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The CLDW is a term in the car rental agreement between the rental agency and the renter. It is a legal waiver from the rental agency, if renter pays the agency extra, waiving its right to pursue the renter for any shortfall after it tries to recover the cost to repair any damage to the car.

That is in contrast to the equivalent-to-CLDW benefit one may have from a credit card which covers claims from the agency against the renter for damage to the car. It is a separate question whether the benefit (1) is unfunded coverage where claims are paid by the credit card issuer itself or (2) is funded coverage where claims are paid by an insurance policy (primary or secondary) that the policy premiums are paid by the card issuer.

Third-party liability is yet another issue. Rental agencies are only required to have an insurance policy that provides the minimum coverage. Yes, if the area in the US requires drivers to only have $250,000 of third party liability, then the car rental agencies will only provide $250,000 of third party liability with the rental.

January 24, 2021
9:04 pm
User230
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Max said
Just received my Tangerine World accredit card and decided to cancel my corporation credit card.

I have 175$ annual fees on my National Bank Corp credit card for 1% reward program. I thought the 6000 points to buy something I could find at $200 on eBay was abusive.

I had MBNA Smart Cash when I was a student.
I loved it because it gave 2% on everything above $600.

Now, I downgraded back to just a personal credit card and the Tangerine World version to have rental car location insurance car coverage when I travel to USA or Europe for conferences. Might not travel for the next 2 years though.

I was wondering if anybody else had found any more cost efficient credit card out there than the Tangerine?  

There are a few no fee cards that have higher percentage back. They are niche cards though. Like the Simplii credit card at 4% on restaurants. I think it has a limit though.

GMC Visa gives 5% and then 2% after a limit is met. The reason no one talks about this card is because the card is the most niche. You can only use the rewards for buying a GMC vehicle. Makes the card not usable for most people. If the card fits your user case, the GMC Visa is the best card in terms of a cash back card with no fees.

Do not consider just cash back though. For example, the GMC Visa was dropped a while back and revived. This meant many people lost their points. An unpleasant trick. Also, another reason most do not recommend the GMC Visa.

The Tangerine and Rogers cards have changed quickly over the years. They started really good then changed their cards for the worst. Also, an unpleasant trick. This is something to consider as well.

Like Tangerine and Rogers, the Home Trust Visa has also downgraded. Most Major bank credit cards and MBNA have also downgraded in the past.

Some cards have great benefits like the Amazon Visa by Chase did. The company was a risky play though and lots of people lost that card when Chase left. A few years from now we might be talking about Capital One like we did Chase. Leaving the Canadian market. Even AMEX.

One of the first things to go when a company starts to struggle is the Canadian operation for some reason.

I have been using the PC Mastercard and AMEX combo recently. They don’t downgrade as often or as much as most cards. They also offer good rewards. Not the best. I am confident that PC Mastercards will be around for the next 10 years and likely the AMEX as well.

January 24, 2021
10:11 pm
Loonie
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Unfortunately I can't make heads nor tails out of Norman's comments about CLDW. And he will not say if he is a lawyer or not. This is the second time I have asked, but no response, yet he gives a lot of legal interpretations on this forum. So, I give up. If anyone is concerned about this issue, they at least know they should look into it for themselves. It is beyond what I am able to do on this forum.

January 25, 2021
7:46 am
gicjunkie
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Loonie said
Unfortunately I can't make heads nor tails out of Norman's comments about CLDW. And he will not say if he is a lawyer or not. This is the second time I have asked, but no response, yet he gives a lot of legal interpretations on this forum. So, I give up. If anyone is concerned about this issue, they at least know they should look into it for themselves. It is beyond what I am able to do on this forum.  

Although the information provided on this forum is often insightful and full of good intentions, I personally would not totally rely on legal advice offered herein. If the details of car insurance coverage associated with a credit card are important to you, contact the credit card company and your own insurance company directly to fully understand how this works. The contributors here have many different experiences to relate to us, and are a good starting point, but speaking to the actual organizations that provide the coverage is paramount.

January 25, 2021
4:05 pm
Norman1
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What I wrote will be clear when one examines the fine print of the car rental agreement and sees how the agreement is changed when one pays the rental agency extra for the CLDW.

I think there is confusion between

  1. the collision loss damage waiver offered by the car rental agency and
  2. the collision loss damage coverage offered by the credit card.

#1 is not insurance. It is just a legal waiver in the rental agreement. In the waiver, the rental agency agrees to not purse the renter for the cost of repairing certain kinds of damage to the rental car. The rental agency does not actually agree to waive its right to pursue others for the damage.

I've never seen #2 not provided through an insurance policy. So, if one declines #1, the waiver from the rental agency, and makes a claim against #2, then that claim is an insurance claim that will show up somewhere.

January 25, 2021
9:33 pm
Loonie
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As I said, I haven't rented a car for several years and I don't know what the fine print says exactly on the rental agreements offered by the various car rental agencies. I do recall that it is typically microscopic and written on poor quality paper.

We also belong to a car-sharing company which operates on a membership basis. For several years now, at least 10, they have actively encouraged members to utilize credit card coverage on their rentals, and they state very clearly that this will cover any CLD. Most of their members do not own any vehicles and are not insured as drivers under any policy. They use the car-sharing company as their primary means of private vehicle transportation..

I don't know what "others" you imagine they could possibly pursue. The only one I can see, even potentially, is if one has bought the rider that extends one's own car insurance policy to any other car one may be driving.
Not everyone buys that waiver, so non-purchasers can't be pursued. From talking to people over the years, I have the impression that a great many drivers don't even know it exists as an option.
Second, a lot of car renters don't even own a car on which to have insurance that could potentially be tapped.
If they're not going to pursue the individual (agreed) and there is no applicable insurance to which they could make a claim, who do you think they are going to pursue?

January 25, 2021
11:14 pm
Loonie
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@gicjunkie, I agree that the purpose here is not to get legal advice per se and that people will need to seek their own advice where applicable, as I tried to suggest above, #11.

I did not ask this question because I thought the answer would establish who was correct. I asked it in order to understand why he doesn't acknowledge any other possible opinion and doesn't offer any cases to support his, as I find this odd.

FWIW, I have concluded that he is not a lawyer.

January 26, 2021
9:39 am
Bill
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I'd assume that others would be insurance companies of other parties involved in an accident, or perhaps the parties themselves - ? Rental company doesn't want to limit its options.

Thanks, Norman1, that's a helpful clarification to me, the distinction between waiver and coverage, and that it's based on reading the fine print.

It's stating the obvious that we don't get our legal advice on here, pretty sure we knew that. And there are many types of lawyers, lots have no particular expertise in insurance law, maybe just as good to talk to the right person in the insurance business.

January 26, 2021
4:19 pm
Loonie
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Perhaps there is some way the rental company could go after other parties or other parties' insurers, but that is immaterial to the renter and does not affect anything to do with relying on CC coverage.

January 26, 2021
6:55 pm
Norman1
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Bill said
I'd assume that others would be insurance companies of other parties involved in an accident, or perhaps the parties themselves - ? Rental company doesn't want to limit its options.

Yes, third parties that are involved in the damage to the rented vehicle are not protected by the collision loss damage waiver from the rental agency.

The waiver from the rental agency can be further qualified. This one from a Budget rental location does not waive damages to the interior of the vehicle:

Loss Damage Waiver does not cover damage caused to tires, rims, wheels if that is the only damage caused. It does not cover damage to the interior of the vehicle or damage caused to the undercarriage or roof. LDW does not cover damage to the truck box or deck due to insufficient height or width clearance or incorrect loading or load shift. …

Should the family cat decide to use the back seat as a scratching post and shred the fabric, the cost of repairing that damage isn't waived!

January 26, 2021
7:39 pm
Loonie
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That is a good clear example from Budget. Things like that, which are clearly in print, are not a problem to understand, and the renter has the option of renting elsewhere if they can find another agency that doesn't have this clause.
The question is, what does the CC cover? I am now having trouble finding the info needed on the link Norman provided earlier for the card's legal info.

January 26, 2021
8:58 pm
Norman1
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Was the link to the Tangerine World MasterCard certificate of insurance really that small before? sf-confused

Anyways, click on the "here" link in the following:

Tangerine World Mastercard® Certificate of Insurance

Please click here to view the Certificate of Insurance (Applicable for Tangerine World Mastercard holders only).

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