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Every penny counts at TD
March 28, 2018
11:27 pm
Loonie
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In mid-December, I closed out a small RIF account at TD - or so I thought.
In January, I got a statement for this account showing, to my surprise, a balance of 8 cents at year's end. I stuck this statement in my to-do pile.

Today, I had other reasons to visit my TD branch, so I took this statement with me and asked how I could complete the close-out and get my 8 cents out of there so that I wouldn't continue to get statements about it.

It was clear she did not want to address this issue as I had told her several times that I wanted to deal with it before she acknowledged it.

Finally, when pressed, she said, "this account is not on your Profile". She could find no evidence of my missing 8 cents.
We went back and forth on this several times, with her saying it didn't exist, and me saying, "but it says here...," pointing to my paper document and asking for the money.

Now, you may laugh, and say, "doesn't Loonie have anything better to do with his time than fight over 8 measly cents?"
But, since I am retired and can afford the time and I was becoming increasingly curious about how much staff time the bank was going to invest in this 8-cent problem and how they were going to resolve it, I persisted in pointing out that the 8 cents couldn't have just vanished. It must be somewhere in TD's coffers; and I wanted it back!

Now, 8 cents may not seem like very much, and it isn't. However, as this was a small account and since the account was paying 13 cents a month in interest, it amounted to 19 days' worth of interest on that account.

It's not much in itself, but when you add it up with all the other similar accounts where they may have retained similar amounts of money, it certainly could add up to a tidy sum - but always for them - unless other people also have the patience to insist on their 8 cents.

Eventually, with no further explanation, she relented and said she would deposit the 8 cents in my regular account.

So, be sure to check your statements and claim what is yours, and stamp out corporate theft, be it large or small!sf-smile It all adds up!

March 29, 2018
3:03 am
Kidd
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You are lucky TD didn't charge you a fee on that closed account. Many times because of the carry over of unpaid interest, you end up with a few cents left in a closed account. Then... months, if not years later you get a debt notice, either a maintenance fee, inactive or below their daily limit fee. So you end up carrying a negative balance which by the year of 2029 will amount to - $1,473.23. And a PAY THIS NOTICE NOW warning. This will affect your credit rating, we will take your first born.

March 29, 2018
9:21 am
Doug
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There's not usually a fee for dormant accounts inside of a registered plan, but there is usually a fee to transfer, or collapse, a registered plan. I wouldn't have cared about the 8 cents but I would've insisted on TDCT closing out the account to add permanence to my record with them by closing all accounts linked to my profile (or my SIN/Date of Birth, if a different profile). I'd have said, "I'm with you keeping the 8 cents, but I'd like the plan closed and your file sent off to your central recordkeeping." sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

March 29, 2018
9:24 am
AltaRed
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I agree the key issue is actual closure of the account, and verification of same. It matters a whole lot less where the residual pennies or dollars go (their coffee jar is fine).

March 29, 2018
10:24 am
John Wayne (Marion)
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I had similar happen to me with the ever so wonderful credit union...Coast Capital.

The online view for my RRIF account said $0 but when I clicked into the account it showed a $5 balance (not membership fee).

I did an in branch visit and CL osed all accounts and showed the $5 RRIF balance and asked for it. My request was totally ignored!!

There is no doubt in my mind that Coast Capital has system issues and they do the “ignore thing” rather than admit or explain why I was not entitled to the $5.

Even though i went into the branch and cancelled all accounts they continued to mail me my zero balance RRSP statement every six months.

One other time I pulled all my funds from my RRIF account...around a $1000......but I could never figure out how they paid the interest and handled the 10% withhold. But I did know from my records within pennies what the interest would be and what the principal was. I called for an appointment but the lady said she could handle over the phone. She started firing numbers at me and she did not even come close to what the principal amount was...then she had to get another calculator, then she broke her pencil, then she talked to her manager. Still not a sensible answer so I said forget it....and set me up an appointment at the branch. So here I was at the branch with a new person with the same lack of knowledge as on the phone. So a more senior person is called in and she points to the two numbers and tells me. It was a match to my records!! So the difference was.....the hold back was applied to the principal plus interest minus the mandatory % that I had to withdraw. The more senior person says.....there online is considered as not being important enough to properly maintain. Want kind of dumb ass remark was that? Don’t most of us do online first, ATM second, and in branch last??

So adios Coast Capital!!!!

March 29, 2018
11:31 am
Loonie
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I don't understand the advice about closing all acounts.
Why would I have to do that? It seems extreme, and I can't afford to do it anyway because too many things are involved with my accounts there.

And how would I verify the closure of the account? She says it's not there now. Presumably, at some point between Dec 31, when the statement was issued, and yesterday, TD closed it down and intended to keep the 8 cents. Is there some kind of bank limbo somewhere where it could still be hiding?

March 29, 2018
11:46 am
AltaRed
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Mary said
I had similar happen to me with the ever so wonderful credit union...Coast Capital.

The online view for my RRIF account said $0 but when I clicked into the account it showed a $5 balance (not membership fee).

I did an in branch visit and CL osed all accounts and showed the $5 RRIF balance and asked for it. My request was totally ignored!!

There is no doubt in my mind that Coast Capital has system issues and they do the “ignore thing” rather than admit or explain why I was not entitled to the $5.

Even though i went into the branch and cancelled all accounts they continued to mail me my zero balance RRSP statement every six months.   

Similar things happen with a number of institutions. Someone forgets to toggle a switch. It took almost a year for my bro and I to get ATB (in Alberta) to stop mailing 0 balance statements after we 'closed' our mother's account as part of closing off the Estate. We had to make 2 personal visits to get it fixed.

March 29, 2018
11:53 am
Kidd
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AltaRed.... it would have been easier just to move and then let the person who bought your house get all the bank statements.

Why does Peter delete most of my posts?sf-cool

March 29, 2018
3:05 pm
Doug
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Loonie, were you referring to my reply re: closing accounts? I was just responding to your post. sf-cool

Mary, with your Coast Capital Savings' accounts, you actually have two membership numbers. I asked about that when I opened my membership a little over a year ago because I hold no joint accounts. They separate your sole memberships, basically, for registered and non-registered. The registered accounts report under the same profile as your member equity share "account" (the $5.00) and report/produce a statement semi-annually, unless you have an active RRSP loan then you'll get one monthly. Your non-registered, sole accounts report under the other membership number and report/produce a statement monthly.

It's possible one of your RIFs (was it a low balance? did it have a zero balance?) got closed or went dormant, though they usually don't go dormant like non-registered accounts do. I know at HSBC, we were instructed when clients would come in to request a special withdrawal from their RSP (we had no access to HSBC Bank Canada RIFs at the branch level, other than via a next-day report we had to look up in another system so all administrative/withdrawal requests were handled by sending a request to the central processing service centre), we were instructed to leave at least $1.00 in them, or the system would automatically close them with zero balances in an overnight batch run the next morning. It's possible Coast has a similar set up.

I would encourage you to keep with Coast Capital Savings. Often, and this is by no means unique to Coast, staff either have little knowledge and experience (read: staff turnover) and they don't want the hassle of looking into it. I never did that at HSBC, so customers were always pleased, but I was the rarity. I suspect service levels have suffered markedly since I left.

Kidd, no idea about your posts. I've not seen any questionable posts from you so I'm not sure.

Cheers,
Doug

March 29, 2018
3:41 pm
Loonie
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"I would've insisted on TDCT closing out the account to add permanence to my record with them by closing all accounts linked to my profile."

This was the part I was referring to,Doug.
Ifi closed all the accounts related to my profile, i'd be closing everything.

March 30, 2018
7:24 am
Doug
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Loonie said
"I would've insisted on TDCT closing out the account to add permanence to my record with them by closing all accounts linked to my profile."

This was the part I was referring to,Doug.
Ifi closed all the accounts related to my profile, i'd be closing everything.  

Right, Loonie, perhaps I should've better clarified. In the event that I wasn't closing all of my accounts with TDCT (assuming I even had an account with TDCT, of course), then my reason would be amended to simply request that the TDCT representative close out the RIF account. If they could not refund the $0.08 to me, I would not be concerned with such matters (several cents can show up in interest payment situations as rounding errors, sometimes in my favour; often in the bank's). I would just be concerned with closing that RIF such that it eventually drops off my customer profile and purges from the bank's records after 7-10 years, whatever the retention timeframe is (think it's 10 for registered plans, if I recall correctly). 🙂

Curious, why do you stay with TDCT for your primary banking relationship, excluding GICs? I guess it's because of their number of branches; however, for my purposes, I've found them to be the least advanced in terms of digital functionality. They have no third-party TDCT branded ABM partnerships, no partnership/alliance in a surcharge-free ABM network, and their TD Direct Investing platform has notoriously higher than average administrative and custodial fees relative to the other "Big 4"-owned brokerages. I'm a beneficial shareholder of TDCT, to be sure, but would never bank with them. Even if you dislike Meridian's business model for not offering competitive rates, certainly they have lots of branches and superior service, based on your and others' posts on this board, so certainly you'd benefit from their fee-free offerings for seniors. Might be worth "cutting the cord" with TDCT and focusing your banking activities to Meridian in the form of your primary chequing account/central "hub" for all your automated income and expense transactions, and then Hubert Financial, Tangerine, and any other CUs with which you deal.sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

March 30, 2018
9:22 am
Loonie
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Thanks for the clarification, Doug.

TD is close to my house; Meridian requires driving, transit, or half-hour walk. I'm lazy! And I have grandfathered chequing account at TD that doesn't cost me anything, and I have a good supply of cheques already. I don't care about apps (don't have smart phone) or advanced tech stuff; goes right past me; and I don't do online banking there for the simple reason that I don't have a need for it.The account is now primarily a hub, with a slush fund for urgent transfers and ATM.
Maybe I even enjoy sparring with and needling their staff every so often. It's entertaining and then I have stories to tell! lol They are all so pathetic, honestly! I've only told you about the first part of my conversation with this person so far. What a terrible job they have. The only one who was ever any use at all is gone now. I think she must have retired. Every time you go in there, the staff are different. The one I dealt with the other day told me their desks aren't even permanently assigned. She says that every morning, when they arrive, it's first come first serve for an office.

Actually, I rarely have to talk to anyone at TD. I have been gradually withdrawing my business, of which closing the RIF was a part - hah! I will soon be closing another account there.

I really did believe I was closing down that RIF in December. That's what I asked for, and he supposedly calculated the interest to date. How hard can that be, in a savings account? Very, apparently. I think the statements come annually, so I'll have to see if I get one in January. If it does come, my 8 centses may start mounting up!sf-wink

March 30, 2018
4:33 pm
Doug
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LOL, Loonie. So, like me, were you more concerned about just having the account properly closed so that TDCT's normal recordkeeping and retention processes would kick in, or did you really want your 8 cents? 😉

I just think how insanely wasteful it is to sent a registered plan statement out for a measly 8 cents!

Anyway, I see your point, and maybe you do like your minor jousts with the staff over their asinine procedures and policies. Funny you mentioned the thing about the unassigned desks. When HSBC's branch in downtown Kelowna was remodeled a number of years ago, they created glassed in offices with a desk, a chair, two guest chairs, and a computer. No labels etched in frosted lettering bearing that occupant's name - just "HSBC," the little red and white hexagon logo, and three horizontal circles for effect. Other than the Branch Manager and two Premier Relationship Managers, the Business Banking Officers, Premium Bankers, and Premier Officer, who provided sales support to the BM and PRMs, were moved to the back office in small cubicles with small, two-drawer under-the-desk lockable filing cabinets. No windows, nothing. When they had an appointment, they were to sign out and move to an unassigned office out front. Personal Banker (CSR) workstations were not specifically assigned, but staff were cordial enough so as not to take someone else's station. At Westbank Branch, the Assistant Manager and a part-time Personal Banker we may occasionally have knew that I liked the second standing workstation (O2KB was the workstation ID, with "02" representing the computer in the branch and "KB" curiously representing the branch name [i.e., Kelowna Westbank]). If you're curious, HSBC's downtown Kelowna branch used "KW" for "Kelowna" and Orchard Plaza branch used "KE" for "Kelowna Orchard Plaza". If you have an HSBC account, one thing positive I will say about them is their bank statements are generous with the level of detail they offer, including type of transaction, where the transaction occurred or who the payee was, the EFT transaction ID (useful for looking up in branch EFT reports), and the terminal workstation ID. You almost never see that. sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

March 30, 2018
7:17 pm
Loonie
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My concern was primarily over their arrogance in stealing my money. The amount was immaterial. It's MY 8 cents.
And, secondly, I didn't want to continue getting these statements.

So,now I've been to the bank, listened to this woman prattle on, and I still don't know that I'm not going to get another statement! But I did get my 8 cents - reluctantly given.

From what you and AltaRed are saying, I guess I should be more concerned about making sure they've shut it down, but I don't know any way to find out except by waiting until January as this woman told me it no longer appears on my profile -which, to me, says they intended on keeping my 8 cents! From her perspective, there was nothing to shut down.

If this occurs next year again, I will at least have that 8 cent deposit showing on my account, to prove that the account was emptied.
It's all so ridiculous!

Your description of the HSBC no-name offices is pretty much the same as these ones.
However, this branch has just been refurbished and expanded. So, we have all new furniture. Each desk bears a special little slab of wood telling us its origin. They're big on looking "green". They also have 2 booths, such as one might find in a diner, in the waiting area. It looks like one ought to expect lunch, but, alas, no such offering, not even a water dispenser. The line-up at the tellers is just the same as before, so it's all for naught in my opinion.

It's not just sending the statement that is wasteful (postage alone costs much more than 8 cents). It's her time,and mine. I figure she's probably costing them more than 8 cents per second!. This must be what enables them to say it costs them so much to administer these plans and to charge for transfers. Perhaps, next year, if I get another statement, I will put in a transfer request!! lol

March 30, 2018
7:59 pm
Loonie
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So, after we got done toying with the 8 cent dilemma, she asked about the money in the remaining account and wouldn't I like to invest it-or something like that. I think she started with the idea that I could get a better rate in their "High Interest"account or whatever. There happened to be a reasonable amount of money in it at this time, but most of it is only temporary.

I said that TD doesn't have any (real) High Interest accounts, and that I keep most of my money elsewhere. She asked where, and I gave her a rough idea, none of which surprised her.

Then she went weird on me again. She pointed out that the higher interest that I was getting elsewhere was not really as high as it seemed because you had to deduct taxes and inflation. This, of course, is nonsense, as you have to deal with those no matter what the interest rate, and it would "cost" you even more at TD; in fact, you would end up losing money at TD if you included taxes and inflation. She must think that because I'm old, I'm stupid!!
Further, I moaned that TD doesn't really have anything for people like me, who are in their 70s or more, retired, and just want a fair return for our dollars in the form of interest.

This brought her to phony argument number 2. She said, without any qualifications, that she could give me 4 or 5%! I said, flat out,"I don't believe you". But it piqued interest on the part of spouse, who was with me, so spouse asked her about this. She says it's a market-linked GIC!
Spare me!

So, I said, there's no guarantee of that rate at all, that it's called a GIC- "Guaranteed Investment Certificate", but without a rate guarantee.

If she'd had her way, she would have been ushering me into the office of the next guy up, who deals with "wealth" before I knew what was happening. And she would probably have gotten some kind of corporate brownie points for it. And that's why I think it's a horrible job, if you have to lie to people.

I told her, repeatedly, that I have no need to take any further risks, and that we actually came out ahead of taxes and inflation last year on our household finances - which is true. After a while, she gave up.

I just can't get over the audacity. They will say anything to get you hooked in! Fake news begins here.

I usually have to speak to someone like her about once a year. It's good to keep up on the latest techniques! If I closed my accounts, I'd miss out on this important barometer of bank bafflegab!

March 31, 2018
8:11 am
John Wayne (Marion)
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She must think that because I'm old, I'm stupid!!

Ageism at its best! First I applaud TD to actually be ingested in helping you but on the other hand I feel most bank employees are brainwashed with THEIR brand of training.

I am 68 and have been subjected to ageism and at first I was appalled that someone thinks I am old. But I have had years of training and experience in dealing with people, negotiating and etc. So I just calmly sit back and keep it rolling till I get them all toiled up in their underwear. I do have all day, you know!

I don’t think we are thought of as being stupid.....but considered to be mellow and more trusting. Hah.....not happening here.

Over the years I worked in retail management and was very political. So I learned to never show your thoughts through facial expressions and unfortunately that trait has remained. So be aware of the grumpy old lady that does not smile! She is smart with years of wisdom!!

March 31, 2018
9:30 am
Nehpets
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Doug said
Might be worth "cutting the cord" with TDCT and focusing your banking activities to Meridian  

I am a fan of Meridian for the most part, except that their limit of $10,000.00 on incoming Money Mover deposits is inconvenient and impractical if Meridian is to be used as a "hub" account.

Deposits in excess of $10,000 require a staff member to manually do a pull, necessitating a phone call and manually tracking the transaction.

TD has no such restriction, although transactions with a TD account require a push or pull from the external FI.

Like Loonie, I too have a grandfathered TD account that has no fees, so I'm quite happy to continue using it as the hub for transactions elsewhere.

BTW, I've voiced my displeasure about the $10K limit at my branch along with a feedback email to the head office and am waiting for a response, if I ever get any...sf-wink

Stephen

March 31, 2018
9:36 am
Doug
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Loonie said
My concern was primarily over their arrogance in stealing my money. The amount was immaterial. It's MY 8 cents.
And, secondly, I didn't want to continue getting these statements.

So,now I've been to the bank, listened to this woman prattle on, and I still don't know that I'm not going to get another statement! But I did get my 8 cents - reluctantly given.

Okay, fair enough, but yeah, that's why I say getting the account closed is more important. I wonder if maybe they didn't just credit your bank account from their "DIF GEN" income/expenditure G/L account (what HSBC Canada's called for "differences under $50.00") and move on? That still wouldn't solve the problem, though, and it would be tax-free to you since there could still be $0.08 sitting in some mothballed RRIF somewhere!

From what you and AltaRed are saying, I guess I should be more concerned about making sure they've shut it down, but I don't know any way to find out except by waiting until January as this woman told me it no longer appears on my profile -which, to me, says they intended on keeping my 8 cents! From her perspective, there was nothing to shut down.

Often accounts disappear from customer-facing banking systems earlier than head office/back office systems.

It's possible she's entirely right, but you could try asking her when they file the RRIF closure report with the CRA (i.e., quarterly, semi-annually, instantly, or at the end of the year) and then verify with the CRA if they received the report of a RRIF closure with an $0.08 balance for you.sf-cool

It looks like one ought to expect lunch, but, alas, no such offering, not even a water dispenser. The line-up at the tellers is just the same as before, so it's all for naught in my opinion.

No water dispenser and Keurig machine in the lobby? New TDCT branches are normally all about that. I've often thought of stopping by a bank branch in the morning, or whenever, for the "free coffee."sf-cool

It's not just sending the statement that is wasteful (postage alone costs much more than 8 cents). It's her time,and mine. I figure she's probably costing them more than 8 cents per second!.

I wondered if this could be true, so I did the calculation. Assuming you met with a CSR, not a Financial Advisor in an unassigned office, the CSR made $15.00 per hour, and factoring in an extra 20% to cover employer-paid payroll taxes and levies (i.e., employer-paid portion of EI and OHIP [if applicable], WCB, defined-contribution pension plan, etc.), you get $18.00. Divide that by 8 hours and then by 60 minutes and you get $0.30 per minute, or $0.05 per second. So not quite, but almost!sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

March 31, 2018
9:55 am
Loonie
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re: Stephen's comments:

FWIW, in the past I have been able to transfer much larger amounts by using multiple transactions, but haven't tried this recently, so don't know if still possible.
On second thought, maybe that was only a transfer-in. You'd think they'd be more concerned about money leaving than money arriving!sf-surprised

You may or may not get a response. Meridian has now introduced a new system for surveying members, wherein you have to sign up to participate. i didn't like some of the terms and conditions, so I didn't. Why do they have to make feedback so complicated??

March 31, 2018
10:07 am
Loonie
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Re: Doug's comments:

The person I met with was being paid more than $15/hr, I'm sure. She was in one of the unassigned offices. And then there's all the time (money) they invest in training her and updating her, sending her to meetings, etc., which are deducted from her productive time. Considering the turnover, as judged by the fact that you rarely see the same people working there and that many seem to move on to Meridian etc. (who would want to stay for such low wages?), her productive time is very expensive.

Be that as it may, thanks for the "back room" information. I wouldn't have guessed that a plan that had been "closed" by request and disappeared had not necessarily been truly closed. Another banking industry absurdity! sf-confused I don't think this woman would have been able to answer the question. All she was capable of saying, repeatedly, was that it wasn't on my profile.

Given that I "closed" the account in Dec last year, it ought to have been reflected in any end-of-year reporting, but I'll give it one more year.

Yes, I'm sure it would have been understood as "Differences under $50" since, according to the info she had available to her, the account did not exist..
A few years ago I deposited a cheque at ATM for a very small amount which never appeared on my statement although I had the ATM receipt. I phoned to complain, and they credited it with no further questions. Must have been the same system. I always wondered how/why they did that without looking into it. They weren't even interested in my receipt or details. Interesting that they have figured out that it's not worthwhile financially to spend time quibbling over something under $50 in some instances.

I didn't notice any water dispenser or Keurig. Will have to ask if spouse spotted any. Nobody was quaffing at any rate. Maybe I don't live in a spiffy enough neighbourhood to warrant one!sf-cry I don't drink coffee anyway, so doesn't matter to me. However, I would have accepted free lunch!sf-wink

Picked up a free baseball cap and chocolates at an RBC a while ago, but can't remember what I was doing there. I remember standing in line for something. We actually found a use for the baseball cap (of which most people seem to have more than they need!)

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