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How Is TFSA Contribution room determined? Do ALL withdrawals increase the max?
July 7, 2021
2:16 pm
Bill
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Online you can withdraw from your Tangerine TFSA to your Tangerine savings account, and vice versa, instantaneously.

July 7, 2021
3:09 pm
smayer97
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@RetirEd thanks for adding another data point. Yes, there does seem to be ample confirmation at this point.

Surprised about a TFSA w/d from Tang being processed as a cheque. Who was the receiving FI? Were they set up for an online transfer on the Tang site?

July 9, 2021
9:52 am
Norman1
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The annual TFSA dollar limit is a component of, and not entirely, one's TFSA contribution room.

Income Tax Act 207.01(1) defines them as follows. The dollar limit is component C of one's TFSA contribution room:

TFSA dollar limit for a calendar year means,

(a) for 2009 to 2012, $5,000;

(b) for 2013 and 2014, $5,500;

(c) for 2015, $10,000; and

(d) for each year after 2015, the amount (rounded to the nearest multiple of $500, or if that amount is equidistant from two such consecutive multiples, to the higher multiple) that is equal to $5,000 adjusted for each year after 2009 in the manner set out in section 117.1.

unused TFSA contribution room of an individual at the end of a calendar year means,

(a) if the year is before 2009, nil;

(a.1) in circumstances where the Minister has, in accordance with section 207.06, waived or cancelled all or part of the liability imposed on the individual, the amount determined by the Minister; and

(b) in any other case, the positive or negative amount determined by the formula

A + B + C - D

where

A is the individual’s unused TFSA contribution room at the end of the preceding calendar year,

B is the total of all amounts each of which was a distribution made in the preceding calendar year under a TFSA of which the individual was the holder at the time of the distribution, other than a distribution that is

  1. a qualifying transfer, or
  2. a specified distribution,

C is

  1. the TFSA dollar limit for the calendar year, if at any time in the calendar year the individual is 18 years of age or older and resident in Canada, and
  2. nil, in any other case, and

D is the total of all amounts each of which is a contribution made under a TFSA by the individual in the calendar year, other than a contribution that is

  1. a qualifying transfer, or
  2. an exempt contribution.
July 9, 2021
12:47 pm
LK
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RetirEd said
Smayer: To be more specific, I am among those who HAS in fact withdrawn money and then contributed back MORE than my cumulative first-deposit eligibility. I think we've provided you enough examples. The principle is fair and clear - you never lose eligibility by withdrawing and re-depositing.

Smayer: Just keep in mind that if your investments are at a loss and you withdraw .... a loss is not recognized as a withdrawal and will not generate contribution room for you the following year. Extreme example: if you were at your TFSA limit in 2019 and your entire investment went down to $1000, and you withdrew that $1000 in December, your limit for 2020 is not $69,500. Your limit is $7,000 ($6000 TFSA room for 2020, plus the $1000 you withdrew in 2019).

July 9, 2021
12:54 pm
Rick
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Why is this thread going into 3 pages? OP...it's very simple. If it came OUT of your TFSA, it can go back in next tax year. Source of the funds DOESN'T matter....deposits, transfers, interest....whatever you take OUT, you can put back in next tax year, in addition to the new contribution limit. The ONLY exception would be if you have not maxed out your contributions and have room within limits to re-deposit the same year (investment losses are not considered withdrawals...why would they be...you aren't withdrawing). PERIOD.

RetirEd said
I caution those planning December moves to be aware than withdrawals can be processed VERY slowly. Tangerine once took over three weeks, with a PHYSICAL CHEQUE being sent from Toronto. I lost weeks of interest and the receiving institution, in January, had to back-date the transaction.
RetirEd  

Why would you do a transfer to another FI in December? Of course it's going to take weeks (AND possibly pay a transfer fee). It's a registered account. I transfer funds every year on Dec 31 and have never had an issue. Just transfer out of your TFSA account and into regular savings account at the same FI (instantaneously) and move it from there. No cheques, no snail mail, no fees, no waiting. I did it when I had an account at Peoples on Dec 31 @ 10:00 PM (after interest was paid) and everything was credited with CRA properly.
It's not rocket science...pretty simple really.

July 9, 2021
1:08 pm
Rick
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Unless you're with Oaken. Then you're SOL. Do it in October. 

July 9, 2021
1:31 pm
smayer97
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Rick said
Why is this thread going into 3 pages? OP...it's very simple. ... 

Rick, I asked the question once. It took many replies for there to be objective validation to my exact question. The question was based on the fact that the CRA uses incomplete and imprecise language that left it open to interpretation, and I have gotten caught up with the CRA on such issues (as have many )... and that is what this thread was for.

And the answer was confirmed and validated on page 1. The rest is from those that are not following the full thread and re-iterating what had already been discussed or raising additional related issues or information.

Only once valid confirmation has (now) been established does the answer become simple.

Rick said
Why would you do a transfer to another FI in December? Of course it's going to take weeks (AND possibly pay a transfer fee). It's a registered account. I transfer funds every year on Dec 31 and have never had an issue. Just transfer out of your TFSA account and into regular savings account at the same FI (instantaneously) and move it from there. No cheques, no snail mail, no fees, no waiting. I did it when I had an account at Peoples on Dec 31 @ 10:00 PM (after interest was paid) and everything was credited with CRA properly.
It's not rocket science...pretty simple really.  

And you are right... ONCE you know the correct "simple" answer and combine that with the fact that some (many?) FIs can take a very long time to transfer registered accounts (be it the sending AND/OR the receiving FI), it only makes sense to perform the entire process manually, keeping it under one's control, and avoiding delays and fees in the process. This too was acknowledged back at the top of page 2.

And I am sure there are others that have benefited from this discussion as not everyone has the same level of knowledge, understanding or experience with these things. That is the whole point of this kind of forum, isn't it?!

July 9, 2021
1:37 pm
smayer97
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@Norman1 thanks for the info. It is good to know ... but do note that just for starters does not define "distribution" nor validate whether their impact on the cumulative annual limits, which was the main reason for this thread.

July 9, 2021
1:46 pm
smayer97
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LK said
Smayer: Just keep in mind that if your investments are at a loss and you withdraw .... a loss is not recognized as a withdrawal and will not generate contribution room for you the following year. Extreme example: if you were at your TFSA limit in 2019 and your entire investment went down to $1000, and you withdrew that $1000 in December, your limit for 2020 is not $69,500. Your limit is $7,000 ($6000 TFSA room for 2020, plus the $1000 you withdrew in 2019).  

It is good to highlight for those that may not fully appreciate this (though I am ware of this). But it is good to make clear that since it is a registered account for the purpose of sheltering gains, it should follow that losses are also "sheltered" and there is no way to benefit from them, either by increasing contribution room or other tax implications/benefits.

July 9, 2021
3:12 pm
savemoresaveoften
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LK said

RetirEd said
Smayer: To be more specific, I am among those who HAS in fact withdrawn money and then contributed back MORE than my cumulative first-deposit eligibility. I think we've provided you enough examples. The principle is fair and clear - you never lose eligibility by withdrawing and re-depositing.

Smayer: Just keep in mind that if your investments are at a loss and you withdraw .... a loss is not recognized as a withdrawal and will not generate contribution room for you the following year. Extreme example: if you were at your TFSA limit in 2019 and your entire investment went down to $1000, and you withdrew that $1000 in December, your limit for 2020 is not $69,500. Your limit is $7,000 ($6000 TFSA room for 2020, plus the $1000 you withdrew in 2019).  

smayer97 said

It is good to highlight for those that may not fully appreciate this (though I am ware of this). But it is good to make clear that since it is a registered account for the purpose of sheltering gains, it should follow that losses are also "sheltered" and there is no way to benefit from them, either by increasing contribution room or other tax implications/benefits.  

yeah its pretty obvious if that is allowed, anyone would just withdraw and then replenish the lost capital with fresh capital and continue to be tax free every new calendar year.
One thing I learn is while govt policy can be dumb, the CRA rules are well thought out and its quite hard to game, unless one is a tax law expert and can exploit the loophole. For use mere mortal, its not possible.

July 9, 2021
4:14 pm
smayer97
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savemoresaveoften said

...
One thing I learn is while govt policy can be dumb, the CRA rules are well thought out and its quite hard to game, unless one is a tax law expert and can exploit the loophole. For use mere mortal, its not possible.  

Though CRA rules may be well thought out, they are sometimes very poorly written, whether intentionally or not. And then on top of that you have agents that may not be as well thought out and give out incorrect interpretations of these poorly written rules.

That is what I set out to clear up. Unless I see any other evidence, it seems like mission was accomplished.

July 9, 2021
5:25 pm
Dean
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smayer97 said

. . . Unless I see any other evidence, it seems like mission was accomplished.
.  

.
And so it looks like . . .
.


.

    Dean sf-wink

sf-cool " Live Long, Healthy ... And Prosper! " sf-cool

July 9, 2021
6:19 pm
Norman1
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smayer97 said
@Norman1 thanks for the info. It is good to know ... but do note that just for starters does not define "distribution" nor validate whether their impact on the cumulative annual limits, which was the main reason for this thread.

It doesn't need to. Anything not specifically defined in the Income Tax Act has it is common legal meaning.

It actually does show exactly the impact of distributions or funds coming out of a TFSA on the contribution room. Furthermore, it shows that the impact of distributions is not affected by the annual TFSA dollar limit.

Not sure where the idea comes from that the increase in contribution room from money coming out of a TFSA is somehow limited by the annual TFSA dollar limit.

The issue of losses in the TFSA is also clear. If one loses $5,000 within a TFSA, there is no way that TFSA can distribute that $5,000 out afterwards and increase the TFSA contribution room the following year by $5,000.

July 9, 2021
7:15 pm
smayer97
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I appreciate the contribution. But you say "it is common legal meaning"... but as I prefaced my OP, the contention I had was whether or not the first statement on the contributions was to be interpreted as a constraint on the rest of the clauses. And I raised this because I have seen the CRA apply interpretations such as this that leaned in their favour, even though there was room for interpretation. So that was the context of my questioning and "where the idea comes from", as originally stated.

Though it may be "clear" to you [with no disrespect to you], to the uninitiated, "It is good to highlight for those that may not fully appreciate this" [re: losses], as I also stated.

Anyway, at this point, this is all moot, as ample evidence has been supplied showing how the CRA actually interprets AND applies this, which is the most important and which was my goal, not how others might interpret it. Mission accomplished.

July 9, 2021
7:16 pm
smayer97
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@Dean Indeed! LOL

July 9, 2021
7:47 pm
Bill
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For the record, the CRA doesn't make the "rules", those are found in the Income Tax Act. CRA administers (including interprets) that Act.

July 9, 2021
8:04 pm
smayer97
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Bill said
For the record, the CRA doesn't make the "rules", those are found in the Income Tax Act. CRA administers (including interprets) that Act.  

And that was the whole point! 😉

July 10, 2021
8:06 am
Bill
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Fyi, smayer97, check out CRA online 25-page guide RC4466 about TFSA's, number of times makes it very clear re your question, including examples such as those involving Cedric & Jenny.

July 10, 2021
12:12 pm
smayer97
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Thanks Bill. That is a good reference page .... https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-publications/publications/rc4466.html

That said, neither Cedric's nor Jenny's examples address the issue in question. That is why getting clear answers from the CRA is so challenging, as often examples or illustrations of key scenarios are never provided and agents rarely know enough how to address them... they only deal with the more common middle of the road scenarios.

July 10, 2021
12:54 pm
Bill
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I must say after this long thread I've got some sympathy for CRA (personally I've always found their agents to be pretty helpful), I mean what can you say to someone who persists in asking if "withdrawals" (a word used repeatedly in their material including various examples) really, really, really means "all withdrawals"?

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