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You might want to move your money out of ING Bank ASAP.
October 26, 2009
4:09 pm
mike
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ING to Raise $11.3 Billion, Sell Insurance Units

"The disposal of ING Direct, considered one of ING's most attractive businesses, was made under pressure from the EU's competition authority"

http://www.google.com/hostedne.....wD9BIQ1S80

ING Direct closing down?

ING Shares are down 17% right now! (That's 17% thus far just today!!)

http://www.google.ca/finance?c.....q=NYSE:ING

Have a great day

October 26, 2009
4:28 pm
Prag
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Why the ASAP? From the same article, "will sell its U.S. Internet banking arm, ING Direct, by 2013" which is 3 full years from now. It also states it's supposed to be sold, not closed.

Does selling the US wing necessarily mean the Canadian wing will also be sold? Things are often very different between countries as far as profitability goes so it may not necessarily mean Canada's ING Direct will also be up for sale.

I wonder who will buy it? I presume merging ING Direct into an existing client base like HSBC Direct would make the most sense during this era of consolidation.

October 26, 2009
11:37 pm
Nightowl
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This issue was raised in this forun in May under "ING Canada may be spun off or sold".

http://www.financialpost.com/s.....id=1562738

"Our business in Canada is profitable, we are able to gather savings in an efficient manner, we underwrite excellent-quality mortgages and we execute our customer-focused, low-cost model tremendously well. Local management and ING Group are proud of our Canadian business" Peter Aceto, chief executive of ING Bank of Canada.

I don't think the sky is falling.

October 27, 2009
3:21 am
Doug
British Columbia, Canada
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I believe ING Bank of Canada is part of the ING Direct U.S. operation so it would likely be included in the disposition. Nonetheless, it's still up to four years away.

I would like to see ING Bank of Canada either sold to perhaps a ResMor Trust Company and combined with its Ally operation, sold to a strong, stable foreign-owned bank like ICICI Bank Canada or HSBC Bank Canada or merged with a strong Canadian-owned operation like a Canadian Tire Financial Services or CIBC.

Cheers,
Doug

October 27, 2009
5:47 am
Nightowl
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ING Direct is ING Group's marketing name for a branchless direct bank with operations in several countries. ING Direct Canada was founded in 1997. ING Direct USA was founded in 2000.

I believe the Canadian and US operations are separate considering Canada's was opened 3 years ahead of the American's.

There is also this article http://www.financialpost.com/o.....id=2147223

It says in part "Though ING has already sold operations on four continents in a push to raise up to 8-billion euros, it is now being forced to unload yet more. The U.S. internet bank, ING Direct USA, and its US$80-billion of deposits will be sacrificed, also by 2013″.

No mention of ING Direct Canada.

October 27, 2009
11:08 am
mike
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Why ASAP? Because if the company goes broke (due to their stock becoming worthless, which is happening right now), it won't matter if it is ING UK, ING Canada or ING USA.

ING stock is down another 19% today.

ING Stock is falling very fast in value. That is the first warning sign, ignore it if you want, it doesn't mean the bank will go under, but I would pull my money out and put it with another bank for the time being, but everyone needs to do their own personal risk assessments.

http://www.google.ca/finance?c.....q=NYSE:ING

I do not have an ING account nor hold ING stock myself.

Mike

Have a great day

October 28, 2009
10:25 am
mike
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Update: ING stock fell another 8% yesterday to $12.96.

It has fallen 28% in 2 days now.

Have a great day

October 29, 2009
4:46 am
James
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Why ASAP? Because if the company goes broke (due to their stock becoming worthless, which is happening right now), it won't matter if it is ING UK, ING Canada or ING USA.

ING stock is down another 19% today.

ING Stock is falling very fast in value. That is the first warning sign, ignore it if you want, it doesn't mean the bank will go under, but I would pull my money out and put it with another bank for the time being, but everyone needs to do their own personal risk assessments.

I do not have an ING account nor hold ING stock myself.

Mike

Ever heard of the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation?
http://www.cdic.ca/e/index.html

October 29, 2009
3:19 pm
mike
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Why ASAP? Because if the company goes broke (due to their stock becoming worthless, which is happening right now), it won't matter if it is ING UK, ING Canada or ING USA. ING stock is down another 19% today. ING Stock is falling very fast in value. That is the first warning sign, ignore it if you want, it doesn't mean the bank will go under, but I would pull my money out and put it with another bank for the time being, but everyone needs to do their own personal risk assessments. I do not have an ING account nor hold ING stock myself. Mike Ever heard of the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation? http://www.cdic.ca/e/index.html

Ya I have, but some of us have much more than that in cash, thank you. When you have more than CDIC will cover you have to think about things differently.

Ever heard of CIPF? http://www.cipf.ca/

Mike

Have a great day

October 29, 2009
10:20 pm
Matilda Greene
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oh btw ING CANADA is a different company than ING Groep from Holland or ING USA.
Plus ING CANADA accounts are protected by CIDC insurance up to 100,000. For those that doesn't know what that means, is that, in the event of ING CANADA going bankrupt, the Canadian government will give you whatever money you had (up to 100k).

So for all the anti-Orange'rs out there, chill out and visit saveing.ca

October 30, 2009
9:21 pm
Bon
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Nightowl said:

This issue was raised in this forun in May under "ING Canada may be spun off or sold".

http://www.financialpost.com/s.....id=1562738

"Our business in Canada is profitable, we are able to gather savings in an efficient manner, we underwrite excellent-quality mortgages and we execute our customer-focused, low-cost model tremendously well. Local management and ING Group are proud of our Canadian business" Peter Aceto, chief executive of ING Bank of Canada.

I don't think the sky is falling.


DOn't believe anything Peter says

October 30, 2009
9:24 pm
Bon
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Matilda Greene said:

oh btw ING CANADA is a different company than ING Groep from Holland or ING USA.
Plus ING CANADA accounts are protected by CIDC insurance up to 100,000. For those that doesn't know what that means, is that, in the event of ING CANADA going bankrupt, the Canadian government will give you whatever money you had (up to 100k).

So for all the anti-Orange'rs out there, chill out and visit saveing.ca


ING DIRECT Canada is going down...get all of your money out of there

November 1, 2009
11:08 am
Nightowl
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A Dutch news article (in english) as to what's going on with ING group and ING Direct USA.
http://www.nrc.nl/internationa.....Dutch_bank

In short
At first glance the history of ING Direct, the internet savings bank of the ING group, is quite a success story. After a cautious start in Canada around the turn of the century, the bancassurer set up a network of ING savings banks in North America and Europe. The internet savings bank quickly grew into a cash cow for ING.

ING Direct USA is also the cause of the problems that the parent concern in the Netherlands is battling. Over the last few years ING has imported a problem portfolio totalling up to 32 billion dollars on American mortgage obligations.

The (US)housing market crashed and the investments had to be drastically devalued each quarter. The problem became so big ING first had to receive a rescue package of 10 billion euros from Dutch finance minister...

Criticism came from Brussels ....pressure to split the gigantic conglomerate that ING had become over the last two decades, into more manageable units.
....the insurance arm will be hived off, a new consumer bank will be formed and ING Direct USA will be sold.

In this article: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/.....uT3B_yN.3s Bloomburg talks about several european banks who are also seeing stock values drop this week for the same reasons as ING has.

As for the stock becoming wothless, March 06 2009 ING stock was at $3.16. Closed 30 OCT at $12.90 so it's up some 400% since then. Aug 03 - OCT 30 2009 stock is down slightly 0.31%. OCT 28 - 29 2009 the stock was UP about 10%.

November 2, 2009
10:03 am
mike
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Nightowl - I never said ING stock was becoming worthless, just that it was going down fast, investors were pulling out their money. Shouldn't savers too?

Look at CIT Group, Fortune 500 company, around since 1908, $71 Billion is assests, just declaired bankrupt Nov 1st. $2.3 Billion in TARP gone, shares to be de-listed, investors screwed.

Anyone following CIT group months ago knew it "could" go this way, but not many people were following it (I was), now those who didn't pull their money out, failed to heed the warning signs lost everything.

Put your money in ING for 1.05%, that's just $1 they will pay you on every $100 you risk with them. Think if ING goes under CDIC mails you a check the next day? next month? next year even? Some wait years to get their money.

Ask yourself, is it worth the 1% risk?

Mike

Have a great day

November 2, 2009
6:37 pm
Andrew
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Why ASAP? Because if the company goes broke (due to their stock becoming worthless, which is happening right now), it won't matter if it is ING UK, ING Canada or ING USA.

ING stock is down another 19% today.

ING Stock is falling very fast in value. That is the first warning sign, ignore it if you want, it doesn't mean the bank will go under, but I would pull my money out and put it with another bank for the time being, but everyone needs to do their own personal risk assessments.

I do not have an ING account nor hold ING stock myself.

Mike

I may be missing something here, but how does a company go broke due to the stock price going worthless? Isn't the stock price based on what investors think that a company is worth? A company can go broke regardless of the stock price. The company still owns assets (such as bank accounts and mortgages), it's just a matter of how much those are worth, and the stock price is a guess at how much those assets are worth. If the stock price plummets, it might be a good time to buy if you think that ING's assets are worth more than the valuation of their stock. When a company is able to sell or spin off part of their business, it means that someone is willing to buy it, which means it is worth something to someone and the person buying think's that it's a good deal. The company selling may simply need to money to finance other parts of their business that they are trying to build up or save. Unprofitable portions of your business are more difficult to sell because they are unprofitable.

November 3, 2009
9:47 am
Mike
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Andrew -"I may be missing something here, but how does a company go broke due to the stock price going worthless? "

Your post above is really good and you have most of the pieces of the puzzle.

To your question, when stock goes too low then it can be "delisted" from the stock market, making it extremely difficult to raise capital funds to support the business. Loss of consumer confidence, buyers, investors, etc, and you have a dead company.

Look what happend to GM (in a way). 50% decrease in their sales due to the word they were going bankrupt. If it wasn't for the Gov't giving them free tax payer money (wouldn't happen in "normal times!") then they would have been dead even though their stock was still "worth something" and wasn't delisted. GM Bond investors ended up with 60ish% of their money back, stock holders and workers lost a lot of $$$ and jobs.

Without investors and buyers, it's a cold world out there.

Mike

November 3, 2009
3:49 pm
Nightowl
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mike (Member, 44 posts) you did say ING stock was becoming worthless in your post 3:08am Oct 27.

(post #6) "Why ASAP? Because if the company goes broke (due to their stock becoming worthless, which is happening right now), it won't matter if it is ING UK, ING Canada or ING USA. ING stock is down another 19% today...."

For someone with no stock in or account with ING (also post #6) why such a Chicken Little attitude? "ING stock down, ING Direct closing down, I would pull my money out...etc"

You state "investors were pulling out their money. Shouldn't savers too?"

WHY ?

You seem to be confused about the different risks stock holders and clients face dealing with ING at this time. If a bank stock is falling, the stock holders must choose to sell or buy as they feel is right for them. You accept the risk of owning stock and can profit or lose your shirt. If you sell a share, someone else must buy it. The number of shares remain constant. The share's value changes based on perceived worth.

Depositors are insured. Risk is limited, but so are the gains. When you deposit money in a bank, its cash assets increase. Make a withdrawl, its assets decrease. A dollar remains a dollar no matter the stock price. If you have more than the CDIC limit for an institution/account type, you would use multiple institutions and/or other saving options.

CDIC also protects the banks. Without CDIC, if ING depositors were to withdrawl their money just because the stock dropped and they feared losing thier money, this asset loss would cause the stock would drop further. You would see a run on the bank.

You cite CIT group. CIT group just filed for Chapter 11 protection in an attempt to restructure its debt while trying to keep badly needed loans flowing to thousands of mid-sized and small businesses. Not quite "bankrupt" as you state. If restructuring under Chapter 11 fails then one may refer to them as backrupt. You forgot to mention the $64.9 billion debt they have.

But why use CIT group as an example of what could hapen to ING. CIT group is a financier, a lender, for about 2,000 vendors that supply merchandise to more than 300,000 stores. Apples and Oranges.

As for GM, Mike (guest), they also filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and emerged July 10.

That "free tax payer money" you refer to wasn't. It was used, in part, to create a new GM. An anomaly among American businesses because most of it is owned by the U.S. and Canadian governments. The U.S. Treasury owns 60.8 percent of the new company's common stock, the UAW retiree health trust has 17.5 percent and the governments of Canada and Ontario 11.7 percent.

Investors in $27 billion worth of GM bonds, including mutual funds and thousands of individual investors, ended up with new stock in a reorganized GM worth a fraction of their original investment.

Owners of current GM (GM, Fortune 500) shares, had their investments essentially wiped out.

GM was delisted. The bankruptcy filing led the New York Stock Exchange to delist GM shares. Officials from the Obama administration and the United Auto Workers union both have said they hope to sell their stakes in GM as soon as possible, but it is likely that shares of the new GM will not be publicly traded for at least a year or two.

Again, Apples and Oranges.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01473.html
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/0...../index.htm

November 6, 2009
11:01 pm
James
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Ya I have, but some of us have much more than that in cash, thank you. When you have more than CDIC will cover you have to think about things differently.

Ever heard of CIPF?

Mike

Well excuse me, Mr. Moneybags. I wouldn't leave $100 K sitting around in ING, therefore I don't have much to be concerned about, do I?

November 6, 2009
11:09 pm
James
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Think if ING goes under CDIC mails you a check the next day? next month? next year even? Some wait years to get their money.

Ask yourself, is it worth the 1% risk?

Mike

How about providing some examples of people waiting for years? Also, I checked the CDIC website and the only member institutions to have failed in the past 20 years were mortgage and trust companies. The last time one failed was in 1996 (Security Home Mortgage Corporation).

November 13, 2009
8:58 pm
Andrew
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To your question, when stock goes too low then it can be "delisted" from the stock market, making it extremely difficult to raise capital funds to support the business. Loss of consumer confidence, buyers, investors, etc, and you have a dead company.

Look what happend to GM (in a way). 50% decrease in their sales due to the word they were going bankrupt. If it wasn't for the Gov't giving them free tax payer money (wouldn't happen in "normal times!") then they would have been dead even though their stock was still "worth something" and wasn't delisted. GM Bond investors ended up with 60ish% of their money back, stock holders and workers lost a lot of $$$ and jobs.

Without investors and buyers, it's a cold world out there.

Mike

In GM's case, they were still worth something. The company would "go broke" because it could not continue to operate due to the fact that their expenses were greater than their revenues and they could not secure any more loans, not because of anything to do with the stock price. If the governments had not stepped in, someone would most surely have been interested in picking up a factory here or there (a Chinese company maybe?). They have a lot of assets that are worth something, just not as much as the shares were trading for and the stock price reacts to the financial well-being of the company, not the other way around.

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