You Be The Judge! :-( | Page 2 | Tangerine Bank | Discussion forum

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
You Be The Judge! :-(
June 8, 2021
12:07 pm
Norman1
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 4337
Member Since:
April 6, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

User230 said

Tangerine should protect their clients from scams regardless of if the business owner was using a personal or business account at their bank.

It did not surprise me that Tangerine did not contact the handbag business owner. Leaving a customer worried and upset, so much so and for so long that they go to the media, is not good customer service.

If I was scammed, I would not expect my bank to bail on me like Tangerine seemed to do. Only to support the customer after being shamed in the media.

I agree.

Some banks have people who know the rules, like the Royal Bank did in Hedge fund manager 'disappears' after bank mistakenly wired $1.5 million into his account.

Credit Suisse wired someone $1.5 million in error. Royal Bank refused to return the funds to Credit Suisse because Royal Bank customer refused the recall. Royal Bank customer then takes off with the money!

June 8, 2021
5:13 pm
Bill
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2594
Member Since:
September 11, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Norman1, I'm not up on all the nuances among the different ways to move money into an account but if interac or wire transfers can't be reversed why does LK's excerpt show Tangerine making the claim "deposits" to accounts (no exclusion noted for interac or wire transfers) can be reversed? I'm not getting it.

June 8, 2021
6:21 pm
Norman1
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 4337
Member Since:
April 6, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

What LK quoted about deposits only applies if the deposit can be returned.

A deposited cheque can be returned by the bank it is drawn on. A "pull" request can be returned by the bank it is directed to.

That simply doesn't apply to "push" requests like incoming direct deposits or incoming wire transfers.

Once an Interac e-transfer is claimed, the funds cannot be taken back within the banking system. One needs to pursue the recipient outside the banking system.

June 8, 2021
7:03 pm
Loonie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 7405
Member Since:
October 21, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I'm not sure I'm following all these details closely enough, but am wondering if the fact that the purchaser specified EFT payment was a tip-off that they were not on the level.
A transaction in this amount could easily have been handled by Interac transfer and could not have been rescinded. A professional scammer would be aware of what works best for them.
Do I have this right?

June 8, 2021
7:34 pm
Kidd
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 754
Member Since:
February 27, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Here's another case. The seller hands over the merchandise after they receive an e-transfer deposit, then the bank (RBC) reverses the deposit.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-man-loses-1-000-merchandise-in-apparent-e-transfer-fraud-1.5080749

June 8, 2021
10:27 pm
Norman1
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 4337
Member Since:
April 6, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Kidd said
Here's another case. The seller hands over the merchandise after they receive an e-transfer deposit, then the bank (RBC) reverses the deposit.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-man-loses-1-000-merchandise-in-apparent-e-transfer-fraud-1.5080749

I suspect there's more to that case than the CTV News story describes.

Interac says that claimed e-Transfers are not reversible:

Tips on buying from an online ad

Take the same precautions you would with cash purchases. … Tips include but are not limited to:

• Meet the seller face-to-face

• Don’t disclose the Interac e-Transfer reference number (starts with CA) to anyone, even if they ask
• Use vigilance at all times – remember, once an Interac e-Transfer transaction is accepted by the recipient it can’t be reversed

The same bank, RBC, refused to fully compensate the two senders in the Go Public story RBC customer out of pocket after fraud… for the losses ($1,734 and $7,000) from fraudulently intercepted Interac e-transfers.

June 8, 2021
10:35 pm
Norman1
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 4337
Member Since:
April 6, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Loonie said
I'm not sure I'm following all these details closely enough, but am wondering if the fact that the purchaser specified EFT payment was a tip-off that they were not on the level.
A transaction in this amount could easily have been handled by Interac transfer and could not have been rescinded. A professional scammer would be aware of what works best for them.
Do I have this right?

It would be suspicious for a Canadian buyer. I don't know of any Canadian financial institution that offers personal banking clients the service to originate a direct deposit or "push" to someone else's bank account.

But, the buyer was in South Korea. One wouldn't be able to send an Interac e-transfer unless the person had a Canadian bank account.

June 9, 2021
12:20 am
Loonie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 7405
Member Since:
October 21, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

OK; thanks, Norman.
I didn't know it didn't cross borders.

June 9, 2021
3:02 am
smayer97
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 453
Member Since:
September 29, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Norman1 said

smayer97 said

Unfortunately, that is NOT correct, at least in the case of Interac e-Transfers, which is a beast unto itself and distinct from wire transfers and direct deposits (though many of the reversal rules are similar).

One example is if the sending account was discovered to be compromised due to no fault of the actual account holder, the fund transfer can be reversed by the bank.

Articles and news reports have been made documenting this very case.

That's actually not the case.

An Interac e-transfer that has been claimed cannot be reversed. That's why there are Go Public stories like RBC customer out of pocket after fraud: What you need to know….

Had it been possible for Interac e-transfers to be reversed, there would be no reason for RBC not to return the full $1,734 back to the sender in the story.

It doesn't matter if the Interac e-transfer sender's account was hacked. Should the sender's bank decide to reimburse, then the sender's bank eats the loss. That's why the sending bank will refuse in many cases.  

Sorry but you missed the point I made and misunderstood. I have done research on this... so let's clarify:
- if you SEND an e-transfer in error (wrong amount, to the wrong person, etc) and it gets claimed, it CANNOT be reversed AT THE REQUEST OF THE SENDING PERSON.
- if an e-transfer is SENT and is intercepted, as is the case in the example articles supplied above, it CANNOT be reversed AT THE REQUEST OF THE SENDING PERSON.
- if an e-transfer is RECEIVED, it CAN be reversed by the bank if the received e-transfer was determined to be due to a breach from the SENDING account due to no fault of the owner of the SENDING account.

The last case is also a caution to NEVER use another e-transfer to send back money to due what might appear to be an errorneaous e-transfer. Instead, call the bank and have the RECEIVED e-transfer REVERSED.

Case in point, if the receiver is sent MORE money than what is expected for a transaction, the sender may ask for the difference back via another e-transfer (a common tactic by scammers). You will be sending them REAL money but later when the bank reverses the scammers fraudulent e-transfer, you will be out the money you received PLUS the money you sent.

So there are 3 scenarios when an e-transfer CAN be reversed:
1. By the BANK because the bank detects a fraudulent e-transfer, e.g. an account NOT belonging to the sender was used to perform a transfer (as in the above examples in the articles). This is at their discretion but there is usually a reason when a bank will do this.
2. By the RECEIVER: ANY e-transfer CAN be reversed ONLY by contacting the bank directly to have them process the reversal.
3. By the SENDER, IF and ONLY IF the receiver has not claimed e-transfer. This can be done either by cancelling the e-transfer via the bank online or by calling the bank.
NOTE: If the receiver has automatic deposit turned on, this is ONLY possible if the bank system has not yet processed the e-transfer (it can take up to 30 mins due to timing cycles of the Interac process).

So again, as I said before, the bank and Interac urge customers to be confident that the sender is not only trustworthy but the account they are sending from is actually theirs, to reduce the chance of a reversal of a fraudulent transaction.

Be informed about how Interac e-transfers work and their vulnerabilities. Don't be ignorant and think these cannot happen.

For smaller in frequent amounts, it may be worth the risk to not worry but the larger the amount(s) the more caution is warranted.

P.S. All info above has been verified with the bank.

June 9, 2021
5:33 am
Bill
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2594
Member Since:
September 11, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Very informative, re e-transfers.

My kids who send me money just set me up as a Payee and choose option Pay Bills to transfer to me, that seems like a good option for those who bank at the same institution.

June 9, 2021
6:01 am
smayer97
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 453
Member Since:
September 29, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It is a useful option as long as one is aware of the caveats, which are not so obvious, especially with the marketing making it sound so secure... and it can be but there are vulnerable points. But whether it is at the same bank or not does not make any difference.

June 9, 2021
9:49 am
Norman1
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 4337
Member Since:
April 6, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Bill said
Very informative, re e-transfers.

My kids who send me money just set me up as a Payee and choose option Pay Bills to transfer to me, that seems like a good option for those who bank at the same institution.

That's not an Interac e-transfer. That an intra-bank transfer, like EQ Bank's EQ-to-EQ transfers.

June 9, 2021
9:59 am
Norman1
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 4337
Member Since:
April 6, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

smayer97 said

Sorry but you missed the point I made and misunderstood. I have done research on this... so let's clarify:

- if an e-transfer is RECEIVED, it CAN be reversed by the bank if the received e-transfer was determined to be due to a breach from the SENDING account due to no fault of the owner of the SENDING account.

So there are 3 scenarios when an e-transfer CAN be reversed:
1. By the BANK because the bank detects a fraudulent e-transfer, e.g. an account NOT belonging to the sender was used to perform a transfer (as in the above examples in the articles). This is at their discretion but there is usually a reason when a bank will do this.

So again, as I said before, the bank and Interac urge customers to be confident that the sender is not only trustworthy but the account they are sending from is actually theirs, to reduce the chance of a reversal of a fraudulent transaction.


P.S. All info above has been verified with the bank.

Did the bank provide any references to terms & conditions for that scenario #1?

That contradicts section 1.6 of the Interac e-Transfer terms of use, especially 1.6(d):

1.6 Use of the Interac e-Transfer Service:

c) When an Interac e-Transfer transaction is sent to you, the sending financial institution will hold the funds for you until you either deposit the transferred funds, the Interac e-Transfer transaction is cancelled, or the Interac e-Transfer transaction expires. You will not earn interest on the funds during the time that the funds are held in a clearing account at one of our participating financial institutions.

d) Once our records show that you have deposited an Interac e-Transfer transaction, the Interac e-Transfer transaction will be final.

It doesn't say "will be final" except when the sender is not an authorized user of the bank account that the Interac e-transfer came from.

June 9, 2021
10:07 am
HermanH
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 208
Member Since:
April 14, 2021
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

smayer97 said
Case in point, if the receiver is sent MORE money than what is expected for a transaction, the sender may ask for the difference back via another e-transfer (a common tactic by scammers). You will be sending them REAL money but later when the bank reverses the scammers fraudulent e-transfer, you will be out the money you received PLUS the money you sent.

Very good to know. Thanks. 🙂

June 10, 2021
12:51 am
smayer97
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 453
Member Since:
September 29, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Norman1 said

smayer97 said

Sorry but you missed the point I made and misunderstood. I have done research on this... so let's clarify:

- if an e-transfer is RECEIVED, it CAN be reversed by the bank if the received e-transfer was determined to be due to a breach from the SENDING account due to no fault of the owner of the SENDING account.

So there are 3 scenarios when an e-transfer CAN be reversed:
1. By the BANK because the bank detects a fraudulent e-transfer, e.g. an account NOT belonging to the sender was used to perform a transfer (as in the above examples in the articles). This is at their discretion but there is usually a reason when a bank will do this.

So again, as I said before, the bank and Interac urge customers to be confident that the sender is not only trustworthy but the account they are sending from is actually theirs, to reduce the chance of a reversal of a fraudulent transaction.


P.S. All info above has been verified with the bank.

Did the bank provide any references to terms & conditions for that scenario #1?

That contradicts section 1.6 of the Interac e-Transfer terms of use, especially 1.6(d):

1.6 Use of the Interac e-Transfer Service:

c) When an Interac e-Transfer transaction is sent to you, the sending financial institution will hold the funds for you until you either deposit the transferred funds, the Interac e-Transfer transaction is cancelled, or the Interac e-Transfer transaction expires. You will not earn interest on the funds during the time that the funds are held in a clearing account at one of our participating financial institutions.

d) Once our records show that you have deposited an Interac e-Transfer transaction, the Interac e-Transfer transaction will be final.

It doesn't say "will be final" except when the sender is not an authorized user of the bank account that the Interac e-transfer came from.  

I agree that there is a problem with the wording. That would be one for the courts...

I'm no lawyer and do not know how fraud plays into the above but what should be obvious is that the banks seem to have taken that position to be able to reverse Interac e-transfers, rightly or wrongly. It certainly warrants further investigation but I think the answer may lie in section 1.6 e):

"...Interac may also decline to complete the Interac e-Transfer transaction because: you have supplied incorrect information; you cannot answer the sender’s question; your personal information cannot be verified; Interac or a participating financial institution suspects that you, or any other party to the transaction is involved in illegal or wrongful activity; or the Interac e-Transfer transaction exceeds a transaction limit. If the Interac e-Transfer transaction cannot be completed, we will automatically notify the sender that it must be cancelled. If the Interac e-Transfer transaction is cancelled for any of the above reasons, your sole remedy for non-payment is against the sender and you will have no claim against Interac. "

There may be other clauses that support this further...

Bottom line is, as it stands now, caveat emptor...

June 10, 2021
12:52 am
smayer97
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 453
Member Since:
September 29, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

HermanH said

smayer97 said
Case in point, if the receiver is sent MORE money than what is expected for a transaction, the sender may ask for the difference back via another e-transfer (a common tactic by scammers). You will be sending them REAL money but later when the bank reverses the scammers fraudulent e-transfer, you will be out the money you received PLUS the money you sent.

Very good to know. Thanks. 🙂  

The key to remember is that if found in that situation, have the bank REVERSE the received e-transfer.... do not send any money back via another e-transfer. You will not be protected if you do.

June 10, 2021
1:09 am
smayer97
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 453
Member Since:
September 29, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Norman1 said

Bill said
Very informative, re e-transfers.

My kids who send me money just set me up as a Payee and choose option Pay Bills to transfer to me, that seems like a good option for those who bank at the same institution.

That's not an Interac e-transfer. That an intra-bank transfer, like EQ Bank's EQ-to-EQ transfers.  

That depends on how it was set up. That scenario can be set up as either an intra-bank transfer OR an Interac e-Transfer. Not enough info is provided here to confirm either way.

June 10, 2021
5:23 am
Bill
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2594
Member Since:
September 11, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Actually TD's 2 options, Pay Bills and Interac e-transfers, are separate options, the former has no choice option involving interac from what I can see.

My point in mentioning was that Pay Bills option might be a safer method if both parties bank at the same fi.

June 10, 2021
6:33 am
smayer97
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 453
Member Since:
September 29, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well, RBC only differentiates them when setting up a payee but lists all of them together (though there is a way to tell them apart from other non-e-transfer payees). Not knowing which bank you were using and how they do it, it was not possible to differentiate.

I just checked the TD online and this is what I found when trying to set up a transfer to another TD customer:

"How do I transfer money to another TD Canada Trust customer?

Transfer funds to another TD Canada Trust Customer

You can transfer funds from your TD Canada Trust personal account to that of another TD Canada Trust customer using Interac e-Transfer®."

NO other option was provided. So it appears that TD uses Interac to perform transfers, even "intra-bank" instead of a true internal transfer, which is very odd...

BTW, RBC DOES allow setting up a TRUE intra-bank transfer... NOT using Interac.

June 10, 2021
8:57 am
Bill
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2594
Member Since:
September 11, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

When you sign into your TD account you will see (above the next-listed Transfers and Interac e-transfers options) a Pay Bills option on the left. When you go in there and add someone as a Payee (under Personal Payee), i.e. you need their TD account number to do that, then you can transfer directly from your account to theirs, just like paying any other bill. And they can do the same to be able to transfer money from their TD account to yours. Been using it for years.

Maybe they're promoting the interac way for some reason, but we've been using this Pay Bills option to settle family payments.

No permission to create posts

Please write your comments in the forum.