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Rules for financial reps
November 21, 2016
9:55 pm
Loonie
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Moderator note: this thread was split off from https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/forum/site-suggestions/rules-and-etiquette/ and the first part below was added for context.

----------------------------
[moderator added]

From https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/forum/site-suggestions/rules-and-etiquette/, Section 5 currently says:

5. Do not promote your product, service, or business on this forum. This includes but is definitely not limited to announcements about new products and rates. The moderators reserve the right to determine what is considered promotional. Representatives from financial institutions are welcome, but you must 1) disclose your affiliation; and 2) stick to explaining the facts and helping others.
5a. Spam includes spamming links included in your signature. There is a zero tolerance for spammers. All spammers will be banned.

[end moderator added]
----------------------------

I think Section 5 should be pulled out and posted on its own in a way that will draw the attention of the people to whom it is directed. As it stands, it's buried. This may prevent further misunderstandings and problems.

November 22, 2016
6:47 am
Bill
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I agree with Loonie, though I'd still be confused if I was a rep. According to rule 5, Janna should never have come here to advise us of Ideal's new product, reps can only come here to answer a question, but I also got the impression from Peter that the original issue was not that, it was that she should have disclosed who she was when she first posted. ??

November 22, 2016
12:58 pm
Loonie
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Janna said at one point that she had had trouble figuring out how to proceed (I think!), so perhaps it would help to have the guidelines more prominent.
I can't really blame her for not disclosing in the first place (although it would have been much better if she had), because the directive to do so was hard to find.

All I'm looking for is a way for posts from reps to be clearly identified and in a way that avoids marketing BS , which I don't think any of us want to have to wade through. Basic information, sticking to the facts, is all fine, and I think that's the intention of number 5 above. I think basically that J did that, but I was taken aback by her failure to identify herself in the first place and by Peter's having to coax her to do so. It was awkward at best. And, so, I think the best compromise might be to give these people their own "space" in which to advise us of their offerings and answer factual questions, preferably with reference to where the answers can be reliably found on their website. They should always be encouraged to get their people to post the answers to the questions we find important on their own website where they can be responsible for them. If they get out of line with "hype", then that is for the moderator to deal with, just as any other overstepping would be.
I would like to see FAQs on FI websites that actually reflected the questions people were asking, not what the marketing departments wanted them to say (which often appears to be the case).

November 22, 2016
4:12 pm
Bill
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Rule 5 is unequivocal: "Do not promote your product, service, or business on this forum. This includes..........announcements about new products and rates." The rule does not say this is ok if you disclose who you are, it says it's not ok, period.

Check out Janna's initial, unsolicited entry and you'll see she's out of bounds re this wording, she should not have posted.

I'm pointing this out because other reps are likely to see it that way too, especially when they see the response to Janna's entry on this site. It cuts off a source of information, but maybe that's the way the users here want it.

November 22, 2016
4:57 pm
Peter
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I think that part of the rule, as stated, might be too harsh. I don't want the alternative to be that they e-mail me or the moderator team with all their latest promotions. But I also don't want to create a section that's just a free for all.

Maybe we should allow postings provided that the reps stick around to answer questions? That's tough to enforce and also has loopholes.

Or maybe... they're very welcome to participate in the forums but they're not allowed to start any threads. And we have a separate "free for all" section (which is still useful for readers because we can learn about promos there) that's not the forum, but they have to pay to be allowed to post there.

November 22, 2016
5:50 pm
Loonie
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Peter said

I think that part of the rule, as stated, might be too harsh. I don't want the alternative to be that they e-mail me or the moderator team with all their latest promotions. But I also don't want to create a section that's just a free for all.

Maybe we should allow postings provided that the reps stick around to answer questions? That's tough to enforce and also has loopholes.

Or maybe... they're very welcome to participate in the forums but they're not allowed to start any threads. And we have a separate "free for all" section (which is still useful for readers because we can learn about promos there) that's not the forum, but they have to pay to be allowed to post there.

I can appreciate that Peter doesn't want an onslaught of junk mail. Nobody does. He does have the ability to screen new members, and does utilize this to good effect, so I would think that any posts to a new separate area could be restricted in the same way.

You are the one with the experience in marketing this site. If you think it would work to expect them to pay for access to a designated area, then that's fine with me.

I am also OK with a trial run of giving them a place to post as long as they stay around to ask questions. I'd be just as happy if they DIDN'T stick around to answer questions, but I appreciate that others probably want this.

Perhaps too we could restrict the kind of information that they might post. The main thing we need to know about is the entry of new FIs into the marketplace; after that, we can follow them ourselves, as we currently do. I don't think a new promo is likely to be missed by the eagle eyes on this forum!
In that respect, Janna's contribution was helpful as Ideal Savings is not doing anything in terms of promotion that has come to my attention. I haven't even had popup ads from looking at their site. For her, this was effective free promotion, and still is, despite any criticisms and her decision not to return. I actually disagree with kanaka on this; I think she is very savvy about marketing. As the old marketing saw goes, there is no such thing as bad publicity. It's all about getting your name out there. And I am confident that she has garnered a number of new clients from this tactic.

November 23, 2016
8:53 am
Peter
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For now, the simple approach would be to clarify "new products and rates" -- we can specifically say that we allow announcements about completely new financial institutions.

November 23, 2016
9:18 am
Janna
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Loonie said

Janna said at one point that she had had trouble figuring out how to proceed (I think!), so perhaps it would help to have the guidelines more prominent.
I can't really blame her for not disclosing in the first place (although it would have been much better if she had), because the directive to do so was hard to find.

All I'm looking for is a way for posts from reps to be clearly identified and in a way that avoids marketing BS , which I don't think any of us want to have to wade through. Basic information, sticking to the facts, is all fine, and I think that's the intention of number 5 above. I think basically that J did that, but I was taken aback by her failure to identify herself in the first place and by Peter's having to coax her to do so. It was awkward at best. And, so, I think the best compromise might be to give these people their own "space" in which to advise us of their offerings and answer factual questions, preferably with reference to where the answers can be reliably found on their website. They should always be encouraged to get their people to post the answers to the questions we find important on their own website where they can be responsible for them. If they get out of line with "hype", then that is for the moderator to deal with, just as any other overstepping would be.
I would like to see FAQs on FI websites that actually reflected the questions people were asking, not what the marketing departments wanted them to say (which often appears to be the case).

I honestly did not think to look under the rules and etiquette topic at any point. My suggestion going forward would be to include these rules either as a something you must check off or agree to before completing registration or to have them in the 'Welcome' email that is sent out with your personal password.

November 23, 2016
2:20 pm
Bill
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Peter, you could limit it to new financial institutions, but that would leave out existing financial institutions that are bringing in a new product (such as a new high interest savings account.) Note that, technically, (for example) both EQ Bank and Ideal were not new financial institutions, they are new divisions of existing ones, yet I'm sure we wouldn't have wanted to restrict them from telling us of new products.
In general, I stay away from micromanaging what folks can and can't do, I prefer to leave things as open as possible (just follow the Golden Rule and respect your Mom!), to not restrict the flow of information, because I'm a big boy now and I can handle whatever comes along the pipe, not going to upset me. Plus you've got the ultimate hammer, you can block/delete/censor whatever/whoever you want, and that's as it should be. But that's just me, you'd be much more aware of the ins and out of trying to keep this site operating as you envision, so it's your call as to how restrictive you want to be. Key is any restrictions should be clearly visible, particularly to new visitors like Janna who, as she indicates, don't know all the rules.

November 24, 2016
9:11 am
fabafter50
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I personally was very happy to find out about the Ideal Savings offer and am thankful to Janna for letting us know. I don't think there were any sneaky intentions on Janna's part.
Hopefully we can find a way for this info to be introduced openly without any offense being taken.

November 27, 2016
9:23 pm
Peter
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I've added a link to that rules page on the welcome e-mail that all new forum members receive. I've also removed the sentence "This includes but is definitely not limited to announcements about new products and rates." to leave it up to the moderators to decide what's too spammy.

December 3, 2016
2:53 am
Doug
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Sorry Loonie, while you and I have surprisingly agreed on several topics recently, I have to agree with Peter here.

This forum has a surprisingly lack of contributed posts by financial institution representatives. The amendment or "split-off" you propose is completely unnecessary. :)

In fact, I wasn't even aware of this "rule" in the first place. It's just not a problem.

I'd actually go further and ask Peter to add a "caveat" of sorts to the part about disclosing their relationship with their financial institution employer. Such disclosure should only be required if the person is posting on behalf of their employer on company company time . As an example, when I worked for HSBC Bank Canada, I contributed many posts on HSBC's products and services information but it was always on my own personal time and never the opinion of the employer. Notwithstanding that I voluntarily disclosed my employer/employee relationship, which was my choice, it shouldn't be a requirement unless the person is an independent contractor/sub-contractor of a financial institution (i.e., an investment or mutual fund sales representative that is self-employed and sells products for an investment firm like Investors Group or even a much more reputable full service financial advisory firm like Raymond James). :)

Cheers,
Doug

April 7, 2017
11:54 am
Top It Up
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I am in support of company reps coming on board to tell about new start-ups or changes to their CUs.

Unfortunately, in the case of Ideal Savings, one member took it upon themselves to question, vilify, and subsequently "chase off" the Ideal Rep without any basis for doing so.

https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/forum/ideal-savings/add-ideal-savings/page-1/

If it hadn't of been for the Ideal Saving's Rep posting to this forum, I would never had heard of them ... for me, as a result of her posting, I was able to get in on their intial high interest savings offer.

The caveat for all individuals investing money in any financial institutional must always be, PERSONAL DUE DILIGENCE.

April 7, 2017
1:36 pm
Shawguy
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Wow I read this thread and the thread the poster above me posted. No wonder the representative didn't want to stay on this group. I thought this forum was more welcoming than RFD and encouraged banking representatives posting to share new products. (I am not in the banking industry - to clarify) Guess I learned something new. I only recently came back to this site after a 3 year absence so I guess I should go read up on all the new rules so I don't get attacked in the future in case I miss a subsection of some buried rule. The above post seemed like everyone was ganging up on her and it was an old boys club and no newbies welcome. Hopefully people are more welcoming to new people in the future.

April 7, 2017
2:08 pm
Loonie
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It would be quite misleading to suggest that anyone is ganging up on anyone or that newbies are not welcome.

The forum does have rules and it is reasonable to discuss what they might be.

The forum works in part because it is not loaded with advertising and one doesn't have to sort through to find this out. Let's keep it that way. I don't think anyone wants to read annoying repetitive advertising or the kind that promise something-for-nothing where there is always a catch. Surely we would also like to know when somebody is representing a financial institution, for a variety of reasons. The reputable ones will not mind telling us but will understand and respect the rules. The issue arose in the first place because someone did not tell us and did not realize that they ought to have done so because rules were either unclear or not obvious.

Nobody wants to miss out on a good deal, but any forum needs to be regulated so as to keep it attractive to members.

I am amazed that there has been such a negative reaction to simply trying to keep the forum a clean and attractive place to come.

April 7, 2017
2:14 pm
Top It Up
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Loonie said

I am amazed that there has been such a negative reaction to simply trying to keep the forum a clean and attractive place to come.  

From another thread:

Just seen:
"Receive a limited time special rate of 2% per annum on 18-month redeemable TFSA term deposits when you contribute to your TFSA. Plus, you may be eligible to receive a 1% transfer-in bonus of up to $150 for TFSA transfers from another financial institution.
Promotion period: March 15, 2017 to April 30, 2017.
Offer details:
2% 18-Month TFSA Redeemable Term Deposit
Minimum deposit of $1,000 CAD.
Interest is calculated daily, is not compounded and is paid annually.
The deposit must be made and the confirmation issued during the promotion period and be in Canadian currency.
Any redemptions or withdrawals of all or portion of the deposit prior to the end of the 18-Month term is allowed. If you withdraw prior to the end of the term, we will not pay you any interest on the withdrawn amount.
Funds must come from a source other than the TFSA plans and accounts with HSBC Bank Canada or any of its subsidiaries (such as Mutual Funds TFSA and HSBC InvestDirect TFSA). Transfers from all other accounts with HSBC Bank Canada and its subsidiaries qualify for this offer. Transfers from accounts with other financial institutions, including TFSA accounts, qualify for this offer.
The deposit must be made in branch or by telephone. This offer does not apply to deposits made through Internet Banking.
The special interest rate offer may not be combined with any other offers. We may change, withdraw or extend this offer at any time without notice.
1% Transfer-in Bonus
One bonus per customer.
Transfers must come from a financial institution other than HSBC Bank Canada.
The transfer-in bonus is in the amount of 1% of all amounts transferred from a TFSA plan at another financial institution during the promotion period to an eligible HSBC TFSA plan, up to a maximum of $150. Transfers into Mutual Funds or HSBC InvestDirect TFSAs are excluded.
This offer is available in branch only.
To qualify for the Bonus, you must sign and submit a TFSA Transfer Form at any of our branches during the promotion period.
We may change, withdraw or extend this offer at any time without notice."  

SO, what's the difference between a member posting this offer and an HSBC Rep posting the offer? Is it more or less acceptable because a "member" posted it?

April 7, 2017
2:45 pm
Loonie
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The difference occurs when an employee tries to effectively sell a product. This involves adding other comments than quoting chapter and verse.
Surely you must know the difference between a quote from T&C (often hard to find on websites) and the embellishment (and often misleading information) which comes from promotional statements in advertising.

April 7, 2017
3:10 pm
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ACTUALLY, that HSBC offer is so bad, I thought it was posted by an HSBC Rep.

April 8, 2017
3:27 am
Loonie
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Top It Up said
ACTUALLY, that HSBC offer is so bad, I thought it was posted by an HSBC Rep.  

I can't account for your thinking process.
The person who reported this offer was undoubtedly providing information that they thought might be of interest to some. There has been no reason, in their 59 posts so far, to think they represented any financial institution. Further, FI reps never provide the fine print version initially. Their job is to tell us what a great deal they have for us, like any one in marketing or advertising.

April 8, 2017
4:40 am
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I'm in total agreement with comment #14.

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