Proposal to define what it 'competitive' in terms of HISA chart inclusion criteria | Site suggestions | Discussion forum

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Proposal to define what it 'competitive' in terms of HISA chart inclusion criteria
December 4, 2022
7:36 am
Doug
British Columbia, Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 4254
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

We generally have pretty good inclusion criteria (I may disagree with Saven Financial being included, being limited to one province in terms of residency); however, in recent years, we've seen a few "hanger-on-ers" that are perennially at the bottom tier of rates. In the past, we've removed ING DIRECT Canada (now Tangerine), President's Choice Financial (now Simplii Financial), and ICICI Bank Canada for perennially low posted rates due to a loose interpretation that has not been consistently applied. So, I'm proposing to modify the fourth criterion from:

The regular interest rate on the high interest savings account must be “competitive” (this is loosely interpreted)

to the following:

the regular interest rate on the high interest savings account must be “competitive” (generally interpreted as being 25 basis points [0.25%] below the current referenced effective average HISA rate)

We could optionally allow for a three-month grace period. That is to say, if the FI(s) remain below that marker for at least three months, they can remain on the chart for up to three months.

The current average HISA rate is 2.70%, meaning that in this case, anything at or above 2.45% would remain on the chart.

Only Neo Financial, Motus Bank, Alterna Bank, and Ideal Savings, currently, would be at risk of being removed, if they remained below the current reference point for three months. Arguably, that's no great loss, and this helps to keep it fair in ensuring that we're appropriately weeding the HISA chart of the perennial hangers-on-ers in a fair, equitable, consistent, and regular manner.

Additionally, if FIs know we have clear, consistent removal criteria, this may actually encourage them to boost their rates. 🙂

Alternative proposal: Remove Neo Financial, Motus Bank, Alterna Bank, and Ideal Savings from the HISA chart. (They would remain on the GIC chart(s), if their GIC rates are still competitive. They would additionally remain on the free chequing accounts chart, if applicable.)

Cheers,
Doug

December 4, 2022
7:53 am
savemoresaveoften
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2932
Member Since:
March 30, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

While its good to know whos offering "high" rates, a table that is inclusive of all popular FIs regardless of what they current offer serve as a good concise place to glance rates quickly. A simple "sort" by high rates to low while keeping all names will serve both purposes ?

December 4, 2022
8:07 am
Doug
British Columbia, Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 4254
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

savemoresaveoften said
While its good to know whos offering "high" rates, a table that is inclusive of all popular FIs regardless of what they current offer serve as a good concise place to glance rates quickly. A simple "sort" by high rates to low while keeping all names will serve both purposes ?  

Under that scenario, we should add Tangerine Bank and Simplii Financial to the HISA chart. They were removed when their rates were around 1.00% and their peers ranged between 1.25-2.00%.

I don't think this chart was ever intended to list all FIs, nor should it be. That's what we have https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/profile/ for. In essence, the "profiles" page serves what you're describing.

Cheers,
Doug

December 4, 2022
10:22 am
rhvic
Victoria, BC
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 475
Member Since:
May 28, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Keep in mind that if you drop the lowest from the list because they are 25 basis points below the average, then you have to recalculate the new average which will now be higher, meaning that a few more might be dropped from the list, leading to a new average, etc. etc. Your list will just get shorter and shorter.

I do not see any problem with leaving FIs on the list which might now be low, but which in the more recent past did have competitive rates - they might come up again, but they won't already be on the list to get updated to a better rate. If however they remain consistently (for years?) on the bottom of the list, then drop them off.

December 4, 2022
10:30 am
Doug
British Columbia, Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 4254
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

rhvic said
Keep in mind that if you drop the lowest from the list because they are 25 basis points below the average, then you have to recalculate the new average which will now be higher, meaning that a few more might be dropped from the list, leading to a new average, etc. etc. Your list will just get shorter and shorter.

I do not see any problem with leaving FIs on the list which might now be low, but which in the more recent past did have competitive rates - they might come up again, but they won't already be on the list to get updated to a better rate. If however they remain consistently (for years?) on the bottom of the list, then drop them off.  

On the first point, not necessarily. Note the word "generally," and if FIs generally have a closer range in rates, we can reassess the criteria, but, more importantly, we've done our job of pushing up rates on the bottom of the pack. sf-cool

I would strongly oppose leaving hangers-on-ers on the list for years, there are charts like CANNEX for that, and the goal of this chart has always been not not to replicate CANNEX.

At the very least, even if we don't adopt the first proposal, we should seriously consider adopting the alternate proposal and dropping the four hangers-on-ers if they remain at current levels in three months.

Cheers,
Doug

December 4, 2022
10:39 am
AltaRed
BC Interior
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2983
Member Since:
October 27, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I don't think anyone will be inclined to be that precise/arbitrary about the proposed algorithm since it is just one of a number of options. I could also argue that 25bp is too arbitrary because 25bp below a HISA average of 3% is a very different deviation from 25bp below a HISA average of 1.5%.

IOW, the process/algorithm shouldn't be more than a moist finger raised to test wind direction and I don't think it matters much whether to stick with the existing vague determination or to be a bit more specific. Someone will need to manage it if changed.

My criteria for selection won't change anyway.

December 4, 2022
10:46 am
LK
British Columbia, Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 195
Member Since:
July 9, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The TFSA HISA column should also be considered as to whether an FI stays or goes. Right now, the bottom four on the HISA chart only are the same bottom three on the TFSA HISA chart.

My vote would be that, at current time, Neo, Alterna and motus are removed, but Ideal stays because of its TFSA HISA rate.

December 4, 2022
10:59 am
Loonie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 9293
Member Since:
October 21, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have to disagree with Doug on this one. In fact, if it were up to me, i'd probably widen the inclusions.

I would add Meridian, regardless of less-than-stellar rate, as it is one of the few that is available to Quebec. I don't live in QC, but, if I did, I would want to see everything that was available that had any potential to exceed the usual suspects.

December 4, 2022
11:45 am
AltaRed
BC Interior
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2983
Member Since:
October 27, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I tend to agree with Loonie there is no particular need to reduce the size of the list. Sure, it might be counter-intuitive to call some of these "high interest savings accounts" at low rates but what difference does that really make in the overall scheme of things? Whether the list has 15 or 25 entries doesn't really matter.

December 4, 2022
12:59 pm
Doug
British Columbia, Canada
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 4254
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Then maybe we need to reconsider adding Simplii Financial (0.40% posted rate, at the lowest balance tier) and Tangerine, or at least Tangerine (1.00% posted rate).

Cheers,
Doug

December 4, 2022
1:40 pm
Dean
Valhalla Mountains, British Columbia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 1961
Member Since:
January 12, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

.
No offence meant to anyone here (including the thin-skinned ones) . . .

    For myself, it works just fine as is. It's not meant to be a master,
    all-encompassing, faultless chart. It's just intended to be a basic
    Guide. And Peter is good at making minor tweaks to it, as needed.

I'm in the; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" crowd.

Surely there are Bigger fish to fry. sf-wink

    Dean

sf-cool " Live Long, Healthy ... And Prosper! " sf-cool

December 4, 2022
4:23 pm
hwyc
GTA
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 1189
Member Since:
September 30, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think we have an upcoming vacancy … Wyth is leaving soon

Oops … was it ever added to HISA to begin with ? sf-embarassed

December 4, 2022
7:35 pm
smayer97
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 821
Member Since:
September 29, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think there is too much overthink on this. My understanding is that populating the rates data is automated. If so, I say, if an FI makes it on the list, leave it there. Serves as a good reference point for others. And since those that drop down low sometimes come back, then there is no additional work.

The list of those that have come off has never been so great that this would be an issue.

The whatbank.ca site has no issues with far more listings.

Keep in mind that removing a listing also removes its historical data, which can be useful for comparison and again if they make a comeback.

In the end, it is Peter's call. Just glad this site is here.

December 5, 2022
4:52 am
RetirEd
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 1053
Member Since:
November 18, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I find no pressing reason to remove elements of the list.

Doug: Additionally, if FIs know we have clear, consistent removal criteria, this may actually encourage them to boost their rates.

I seriously don't think any financial institution in this country cares about niche forums and web sites (all due respect, but this ain't no TikTok) enough to move their rates based on what we muse here.
RetirEd

RetirEd

Please write your comments in the forum.