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TD RRIF mutual fund execution time
October 17, 2018
8:58 pm
Oscar
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Hi all , went in to a TD branch on October 1 and instructed them to sell mutual fund held in RRIF and hold as cash in RRIF in order to blend with a maturing RRIF GIC. I actually went to the branch because the GIC was maturing on the 7th and I didn't want it to auto renew and the branch phone goes to voicemail always. The the branch employee that I dealt with called on the 9th to confirm that GIC was not autorenewed and he said that mutual fund transaction hadn't gone through yet and he would contact me when it did. I called the 1 800 # yesterday (16th ) and found out that the order was received by the processing department on Saturday the 13th and settled on Monday the 15th. In that time the value dropped by over $600. It was a TD Mutual fund and from what I have read on this forum it usually executes within a couple of days . This is my mother's RRIF and she was with me when we went to the branch. Any thoughts , advice ?

October 18, 2018
5:36 am
Norman1
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Like stock transactions, mutual fund transactions are usually T+2 business days.

Orders submitted on a trading day before the daily cutoff (3:30 pm Eastern time for Scotia iTRADE) will take place at that day's price. Orders after the cutoff or on a non-trading day will receive the price on the next trading day.

A sell order placed on Monday, October 1 should receive the October 1 or October 2 price, depending on whether it was placed before or after TD's daily cutoff time. T+2 settlement means the sale would close Wednesday, October 3 or Thursday, October 5.

October 18, 2018
8:13 am
Loonie
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Maybe you should take this up with the bank's ombudsman. Norman1 is one of this forum's most reliable members, so I would go with what he says.

I had a significant delay too when redeeming a mutual fund RSP at HSBC. In my case it was just very annoying, didn't make m any financial difference. I didn't pursue the issue as I was just glad to be done with them.

I redeemed a non-fund LIRA at Scotia, and that took about a week, but LIRAs are more complicated in their rules.

Based on my experience redeeming cash-only RIFs, it seems to take another couple of days just to do that much with some but not all financial institutions. Some can do it immediately (e.g. National Bank) and others can't (Meridian took 2 business days). I am still waiting to see if TD has actually finally fully closed the RIF which I instructed them to close in 2017. There are a few cents in it which I have had trouble getting rid of. I won't know until the end of the year for sure because they only ever sent annual statements, so i am waiting to see if I get another one. Asking doesn't help as they told me earlier that there was nothing left in it and it was not on their records yet the statement with six cents in it still arrived.

October 18, 2018
8:35 am
Oscar
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Thanks Norman1 for clarifying the process. I am still waiting on the bank rep from the branch to call me back as he said he would do so when it was done. I'm curious to see how long it takes him but Monday is as long as I will wait. It's been 17 days so far , it should be reasonable to assume a bank employee would find this to be an unusually long period of time to complete this transaction IF they know their stuff. When I get the details of the settlement price I can pin down the sell date. If it is as I suspect I think I am going to have to meet with the manager to discuss but I doubt anything will be resolved at the branch level. Will update as story unfolds...

October 18, 2018
8:10 pm
Norman1
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Did your mother have one RIF account with TD or two RIF accounts with TD, Oscar?

I don't think one can have a single RIF account at a TD branch that can hold both GIC's and mutual funds. I remember a friend running into an issue with an RRSP or RESP.

From TD Retirement Income Options (RIF) page, it looks like one would need

  1. a TD Mutual Funds RIF (from TD Investment Services) for the mutual funds and
  2. a TD Canada Trust Flexi-RIF (from TD Bank) for the GIC's.

TD Investment Services is actually a separate company with reps embedded in the TD Bank branch.

Maybe the sell order wasn't sent to TD Investment Services. Instead, a RIF transfer request was prepared by TD Bank and sent to TD Investment Services.

The request would transfer the contents of your mother's TD Mutual Funds RIF account at TD Investment Services, in cash, to her TD Canada Trust Flexi-RIF at TD Bank. TD Investment Services didn't sell the mutual funds until they received the transfer request on October 13!

October 18, 2018
9:26 pm
Oscar
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Norman1 you seem to have connected the dots into what may have occurred as she does indeed have these 2 accounts as you have described. Today she received a letter from TD investment services which was a transaction confirmation statement that showed the trade and settlement date both as Oct 15. I went to the branch and spoke with the rep who assisted us since the original transaction and when I explained the issue of the unreasonable delay in executing the order he seemed genuinely perplexed as well but had no solution as the manager was not in.
It's interesting that you say they are separate companies with reps embedded in the branches because I have never been asked what company rep I was wanting to deal with . So he probably filled ot a transfer form instead of a sell order form or something to that effect. I wonder if they will figure out how that happened but as far as I am concerned it's their mistake as we clearly issued a sell order, as in sell those mutual funds shares . Loonie you're spot on about this Norman1 fellow, cheers !

October 18, 2018
9:46 pm
Oscar
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And that was another reason for consolidating funds , so that she could just look at one statement instead of quarterly statements for mutual funds etc. They all seem to have the same green letterhead and look the same except for the account numbers which is confusing because she thought she just has one RIF account at TD.

October 18, 2018
10:25 pm
Kidd
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So true about norman1.

I read the posts here on this forum and i try to figure out... what did or what does that person do for a living? Hmm. Most i have pegged as white collared liberals. Norman1, i have put him into the accounting/banking field. Example being, with a Cra tax sheet. I had referenced a cra (over contribution) sheet to someone here in this forum. Norman1 advised, look on the back of that sheet. Norman was able to quote a passage from the reverse side.

I didn't know the sheet had a backside. I had gone to the cra web site and found the page for the person. YOUR government never mentioned that they had text hidden on the back of the page, Norman1 knew that they had.

Added edit... the text on the reverse side of the form dealt with. You have x amount of time to claim an over contribution.

October 22, 2018
7:57 pm
Norman1
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Sometimes, one gets lucky! With electronic PDF documents, there's no backside. Just two pages! sf-laugh

October 22, 2018
8:08 pm
Norman1
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Oscar said
And that was another reason for consolidating funds , so that she could just look at one statement instead of quarterly statements for mutual funds etc. They all seem to have the same green letterhead and look the same except for the account numbers which is confusing because she thought she just has one RIF account at TD.  

Yes, they try to make it look like one integrated financial institution. Like matching furniture in a room. But, TD Bank and TD Investment Services really aren't.

TD Bank is a federally-regulated bank that is a member of CDIC. TD Investment Services is a provincially-regulated mutual funds dealer that's a member of the Mutual Fund Dealers Association of Canada.

Usually, the receiving institution, not the relinquishing institution, prepares the transfer request. So, I suspect you and your mother dealt with a TD Bank rep and not a TD Investment Services rep.

October 22, 2018
9:20 pm
Oscar
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Yes Norman1 I have been trying to figure out how this played out and it seems like a shell game to me as far as the way different companies are structured under the TD umbrella.
I looked at our photocopy of the Transfer Authorization form and it has TD Canada Trust as the Receiving Institution but also listed as the relinquishing institution and the original home branch address listed , not TD Investment Services as I agree it should have been and that may have caused a delay in the process but it was their error. But here's the kicker : the rep's business card is doubled sided and on one side he is an investment consultant for TD Investment Services and on the opposite side he is a Financial Services Rep for TD Canada Trust . This is the rep that we have dealt with from the original visit. So I'm not sure which company he was representing when he was filling out the transfer forms but he should have been familiar with the procedure as he is riding the top of the fence.If you hadn't opened my eyes to the 2 account scenario I would never have noticed this detail as at a casual glance both sides appear to be identical. Seems like a conflict of interest to an outsider but I'm sure it's all very legal.
Another thing is I messed up the date as I looked at my notes and found we had actually went to the bank and filled out the forms on Monday Sept 17 and not on Monday October 1( 2 weeks previous to my previous recollection ) . Thank goodness I wrote it down.

October 22, 2018
9:49 pm
Oscar
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As a side note to the PDF documents having no back side , neither do photocopies. Upon reviewing the photocopy of the transfer authorization request form I noticed in very small print " I have read the disclosure on reverse and authorize transfer as above ". That references the Account Transfer Client Disclosure which was also photocopied and attached on a separate piece of paper and upon reading it was surprised to see that it said that is was to be read before signing the transfer form . If they want you to read it before signing the form they should put it before the page you sign. Just sign here...sf-wink

October 23, 2018
7:14 pm
Norman1
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Oscar said

I looked at our photocopy of the Transfer Authorization form and it has TD Canada Trust as the Receiving Institution but also listed as the relinquishing institution and the original home branch address listed , not TD Investment Services as I agree it should have been and that may have caused a delay in the process but it was their error. But here's the kicker : the rep's business card is doubled sided and on one side he is an investment consultant for TD Investment Services and on the opposite side he is a Financial Services Rep for TD Canada Trust . This is the rep that we have dealt with from the original visit. So I'm not sure which company he was representing when he was filling out the transfer forms but he should have been familiar with the procedure as he is riding the top of the fence. If you hadn't opened my eyes to the 2 account scenario I would never have noticed this detail as at a casual glance both sides appear to be identical. Seems like a conflict of interest to an outsider but I'm sure it's all very legal.

That's interesting. The rep could represent both TD Investment Services and TD Bank! However, TD Investment Services is actually owned by TD Bank. So, there isn't really a conflict of interest.

I think the rep probably acted on behalf of TD Bank, the receiving institution, when he filled out the transfer form with you.

I did some searching and it looks like he may have used the wrong form. sf-surprised In the TD Direct Investing library of forms and applications, there is both

  • a Transfer Authorization for Registered Investments form and
  • a Registered Plan Internal Transfer form.

The form you described sounds like the first form, for transferring from another financial institution. It has the text "I have read the disclosure on reverse and authorize transfer as above." in the signature block.

The second form seems to be the appropriate one for transferring from another related TD entity. No addresses needed. Only the TD Investment Services account number to transfer from.

TD's transfer processing centre in Markham (Canada Trust Company) was probably confused when it received an external transfer form to transfer from another TD entity. They may have then had difficulty locating your mother's RIF, with the given account number, at TD Bank, when her RIF was actually with TD Investment Services!sf-frown

October 24, 2018
6:27 am
Oscar
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Thanks Norman1 , l had no luck finding that previously. I looked at both forms and the first one is indeed the one that was used and it seems like the other one was the appropriate form for the transfer and it makes sense that it would create an issue in the transfer/processing department . Expecting a reply by Friday .

October 26, 2018
5:10 pm
Oscar
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I am pleased and surprised sf-surprisedto report that TD Canada Trust has decided to make good on the delay in processing the transaction and will be refunding the loss caused by the delay and apologized for the inconvenience caused . Have to give them credit for doing the right thing.sf-cool

October 26, 2018
6:43 pm
Loonie
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Glad you had a happy ending!

October 26, 2018
8:10 pm
Norman1
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Good to hear that TD will compensate your mother for the lower proceeds from her mutual fund unit sale, as the result of the one month delay (September 15 to October 15) in the internal transfer.

October 27, 2018
10:09 pm
Oscar
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Wouldn't be surprised if they monitor social media to prevent negative feedback. It's certainly a possibility and if so it's a great reason to participate in sites like this one

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