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Oaken Maturity Dates and Rate Guarantee
June 1, 2023
2:17 pm
Pewter
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I have 5 GICS with Oaken all done on issue date of May 17 2023

Maturity Dates Given based other their description of a year equalling 365 days
1 yr May 17 2024
2 yr May 20 2025 <=
3 yr May 19 2026 <=
4 yr May 17 2027
5 yr May 17 2028

I realize that I leap year can make and difference and in my opinion a Sat, Sun or Stat Holiday should make no difference.

I made an excel sheet for maturity dates. I had to add a 1 to make it work. Here it is.

Does it make sense.....my excel or the Oaken printed certificate dates??

Sorry is small.

Screen-Shot-2023-06-01-at-2.19.44-PM.png

I have seen here a few years ago that they had a 30 rate guarantee and I believe when the rates went up it would even say that any GIC's in a "time frame" would move to the higher rate.

Has any one experienced the opportunity of a higher rate due a a change after the GIC was purchased?

June 1, 2023
4:13 pm
Pewter
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Just looked at it. Since 2024 is leap year then there is one extra day and the maturity date should be I day less.

Screen-Shot-2023-06-01-at-4.09.33-PM.png

June 1, 2023
4:49 pm
Norman1
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Leap years don't make a difference.

Longer term GIC's and bonds are based on years and days and not days. A five year GIC issued January 18, 2023 is expected to mature January 18, 2028, regardless of any leap days in between.

Each year always has twelve months. Use Microsoft Excel function =EDATE() to add 12 months for every year to correctly calculate annual maturity dates.

June 1, 2023
5:22 pm
Pewter
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Thanks @Norman1

See this.....is mentioned on same web page 3 times.

95CD76FF-AC73-487B-B4EA-52A02547131A.jpeg

How should this be interpreted. To me, a year, according to them is 365 days.

I have 5 GICs for 1-5 years done on May 17. Some mature on May 17 and May 18 and May 20 of different years. That doesn’t match what you are saying. I am trying to get feedback so our next call gets escalated with out a call back.

If I call about a RIF I will get the usual incompetent representative and they will say we will get a call back. Last 3 calls we were promised a call back for 3 different things......and never a call back.

Losing trust and confidence over the credibility of any rep we call.

June 1, 2023
8:37 pm
AltaRed
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Do GIC issuers not normally avoid having a GIC mature on a non-business day? I seem to recall that being the case when buying GICs at discount brokerages at least.

Would that not reconcile with having slightly different dates of maturity?

June 1, 2023
8:51 pm
Norman1
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That would explain why the maturity date of the two- and three-year GIC's were adjusted:

Year Date Day of
Week
Victoria Day
Monday
Issued 17-May-2023 Wednesday
1 year 17-May-2024 Friday
2 year 17-May-2025 Saturday 19-May-2025
3 year 17-May-2026 Sunday 18-May-2026
4 year 17-May-2027 Monday 24-May-2027
5 year 17-May-2028 Wednesday
June 2, 2023
7:45 am
Wrayzor
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I have GICs with Oaken and some mature on a different day of the month because of weekend maturity. I also recall this being the case at other FIs.

The original question prompted me to see how they calculate the interest payable at maturity. From my limited number of examples, it appears that they are including an extra day or two of interest if there is +1 or 2 added to the maturity date. So no loss with the extra day or two.

I also see that leap years are considered a year, not a year + 1 day for interest calculations. I had not expected an extra day of interest in a leap year, but the "per 365 days" statement on the Oaken site is not technically correct.

June 2, 2023
8:13 am
Norman1
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That's what I expect as well.

If GIC issuer adjusts the maturity date of a two-year GIC issued May 17 this year to the closest business day, Tuesday, May 20, 2025, then the GIC is a 2 year, 3 day GIC and not a 2 year GIC.

The 365 days mentioned indicates that the extra three days will have interest paid 3/365 of the GIC's per annum rate, regardless of whether the year of maturity is a leap year or not.

June 3, 2023
9:57 am
Pewter
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Just a prequel to previous GICs interest rates vs new rates announced.

I do believe quite awhile ago Oaken announced rate increases about a week in advance.
I also believe they used to advise you, in the rate increase announcement, that any GICs purchased x days before, that the new rates in affect would apply to the recently purchased GICS.
They may have mentioned the same, somewhere on the website as well.

Today and yesterday I cannot find any info on web site as a policy to cover this situation.

My recent RIF payment was under the new rules as was taken from the wrong GIC. I did not pursue.

Over the past months I have made 3 calls about, what seems to be a boogy man.....called a RIF. Obviously the questions were over their head and they promised they would call back with an answer. Those 3 calls never happened. Not impressed.

I also do believe when you call them that possibly from the caller ID it may also bring up your account. And ID’ing you is just a process and a verification that must be done.

In the past I had a policy not to use Oaken for registered funds. But I do want to use them for non registered and they have a Vancouver office. Some good rates tantalized me to go against my policy. Now I regret it....they don’t deserve my registered funds business and more so, no flexibility as there are no associated savings accounts to park funds.

Inconsistencies are going to reveal them as having extremely poor service, inconsistent responses and policies.

Prequel over.

I called and asked. They did not ID me and was told NO. That it has be be in 15 days. If you count from June 1 backwards by 15 you get to May 17. I guess I count wrong. ):

So I called again. Once again, not ID’d. This time was told 15 days and count backwards from May 17. <= Not a typo. That was a wasted call!! ):

So I called again and spoke to management. This time I was ID’d. Was advised the policy is 10 working days. And of course NO.

Huge inconsistencies.....how am I supposed to trust the words at a first point of contact. Why is this not covered on the web site?

Truly, the only thing Oaken is good for is non registered GICs. Can do everything online and no need to call back to pay interest annually or to pay out to savings at maturity.

My TFSA registered accounts are well under control to exit.

Next step is to develop our RIF exit strategy.

Any suggestions for RIF Accounts?

Different maturity dates comments will follow up in a few days.

June 3, 2023
10:56 am
Norman1
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In the May 25, 2022 Oaken rate increase notice, only GIC's booked May 18 or later would be adjusted upwards to the May 25 rates. That's only four business days because of the Victoria Day Monday in the period.

Their non-registered application form says "For mail-in applications, these rates remain active up to 5 business days from the application date."

I think there may be confusion between a 30-day rate hold for registered account transfer-ins and a 30-day rate betterment in case the rate increases after a GIC purchase.

June 6, 2023
11:32 am
Pewter
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EFE4160A-289E-453E-A01E-A01DCFC22F33.jpeg

So just to follow up on the maturity dates. We decided not to call Oaken as their track history of not following up and not being all on the same page, that it would be pointless and an added frustration.

The pic above, if Oaken knew how to be up front, should say that maturity dates will be different (longer out) if a weekend or statutory holiday occurs. With the May 17 date my maturities hit a few weekends and a few Victoria days. They should also mention that those extra days will also pay out interest. I disagree that a leap year is a year......it is 366 days and the GIC should pay out, interest wise, 365 days plus 1 day of interest.

Our past 6 months of dealing with Oaken over the phone (because their website is uninformative) has been an exercise in futility and we have jointly decided to totally transfer out all registered products upon maturity.

And what’s next with the new “American” ownership?

June 6, 2023
11:35 am
Pewter
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Norman1 said
That would explain why the maturity date of the two- and three-year GIC's were adjusted:

Year Date Day of
Week
Victoria Day
Monday
Issued 17-May-2023 Wednesday
1 year 17-May-2024 Friday
2 year 17-May-2025 Saturday 19-May-2025
3 year 17-May-2026 Sunday 18-May-2026
4 year 17-May-2027 Monday 24-May-2027
5 year 17-May-2028 Wednesday

  

Yes, thank you. You are bang on!!!

June 6, 2023
11:40 am
Pewter
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Norman1 said
In the May 25, 2022 Oaken rate increase notice, only GIC's booked May 18 or later would be adjusted upwards to the May 25 rates. That's only four business days because of the Victoria Day Monday in the period.

Their non-registered application form says "For mail-in applications, these rates remain active up to 5 business days from the application date."

I think there may be confusion between a 30-day rate hold for registered account transfer-ins and a 30-day rate betterment in case the rate increases after a GIC purchase.  

Thank you.
They need to publish their rare protection options.

June 6, 2023
2:01 pm
Wrayzor
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Complaining to Oaken about the maturity dates would indeed be pointless since it is a long time industry practice to not have GICs mature on non-business days. But you get extra interest for the additional days, so it seems to be a no-harm, no-foul situation.

I agree that the "per annum (365 days)" is not accurate for leap years, but that has likely been industry practice too.

Not sure who the “new American” owner is supposed to be.

June 6, 2023
2:17 pm
Pewter
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Sold to.
https://www.oaken.com/oaken-news-and-update/#:~:text=Home%20Capital%20Enters%20Into%20Definitive%20Arrangement&text=We%20would%20like%20to%20share,in%20the%20financial%20services%20industry.

I was not going to complain. But inquire.

The old old and needs to be modernized is,,,,, banking days are Monday to Friday. I’m in my 7th decade and can accept any day as a business day and that computers can accept GIC applications and pay out with out human intervention on the maturity date. Time for banking and banking systems to be modernized.

If Oaken can post rates are per annum (365 days), then should clarify the exceptions. And it’s not up to me to just know how they work. If they think I only deal with them, they would be incorrect. I desk with at least 6 banks, and I do believe that some do GIC and interest payouts on non banking days.

The short of it all,,,,they have crappy customer service and should offer much more clarity. Less hassle for me and less calls for them to answer.

June 6, 2023
2:27 pm
Pewter
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I may need to be corrected.
I thought I had read that the new company was American.

June 6, 2023
2:48 pm
Wrayzor
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In total agreement that modernization is needed and desired. To me, better customer service and a host of other improvements would be way above dates that GICs mature.

Smith Financial is controlled by Stephen Smith who is Canadian. Maybe new ownership will improve things, but time will tell.

June 7, 2023
8:43 am
RetirEd
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I always ask whether interest is calculated by days (30-day months and 365/366-day years) or calendar years. Different outfits have different policies! I haven't tried to figure out whether banks, trust companies or credit unions have distinct category rules. On the other hand, many rate listings cite 180-to-359, 360-to-729, and terms like that. Such listings would indicate the by-the-day method.

I know Peoples goes by the day, because my terms there move their interest dates up during leap years. I can't name a calendar-year institution at the moment, but I am pretty sure I've found them - that's why I always check.
RetirEd

RetirEd

June 7, 2023
9:30 am
Pewter
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RetirEd said
I always ask whether interest is calculated by days (30-day months and 365/366-day years) or calendar years. Different outfits have different policies! I haven't tried to figure out whether banks, trust companies or credit unions have distinct category rules. On the other hand, many rate listings cite 180-to-359, 360-to-729, and terms like that. Such listings would indicate the by-the-day method.

I know Peoples goes by the day, because my terms there move their interest dates up during leap years. I can't name a calendar-year institution at the moment, but I am pretty sure I've found them - that's why I always check.
RetirEd  

Interesting. I was always aware that compounding can be done in different ways...but assumed all FIs would do the same and give the least. I run a large excel program that consolidates my investments and shows it in matured value. I use the same excel calculation for all and very rarely are my numbers incorrect and if they are it is usually only a few dollars more that I receive.

That is why I need Oaken to tell me how much of my RIF payment is interest vs principal so I can adjust the calculation. But being the boogy man RIF....they can never answer yet they will show these numbers at year end. While I must be more careful at recording in my calendar, my maturity date vs issue date, I find that People’s Trust pays out the day after maturity.

Good point, also, about the length of a GIC in days. I have dealt with an FI that would say like, 3 years and 3 days, etc. Which only compounds the dislike I have for Oaken as they always display fair market value for a GIC that has ie 3 years and 2 days as 3 years.

June 16, 2023
8:39 am
Pewter
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Here we go on the Oaken “Merry Go Around”. Perhaps the new management looked at Benjy Katchens notes on where to find true feed back.

This is the rate posting that I was given 3 answers why the rates would not be retroactive.
Answer 1 flat out no.
Answer 2 was within 15 days but we missed....depends on how the count was done.
Answer 3 by a manager was within 10 working days, an obvious miss!

59FB8230-F091-4C97-85EB-F4952825F52B.jpeg

Here is their latest rate increase. Retroactive looks like to me as being 7 days or 5 working days. What can I say? Misinformation over phone leads to trust issues. Misinformation within in Oaken shows poor training, communication or no reference material easily accessible. My direction has not changed .... Oaken will lose ALL of our registered GICs due to their bungling vs using some common sense.

B21C0207-275B-4A8B-A304-31EAAFAD06D4.jpeg

And holy moly the post shows a retroactive date!!

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