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Meridian 3.5% 5 year GIC
May 28, 2018
6:51 pm
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HISAhopper said

... I hope the FI would not know when its client dies. The transfer is scheduled pre-dead and automatic. What is in it for them (FI) to take legal action about the transfer? 

What does the "transfer is scheduled pre-dead and automatic" mean?

May 28, 2018
7:10 pm
HISAhopper
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Top It Up said

HISAhopper said

... I hope the FI would not know when its client dies. The transfer is scheduled pre-dead and automatic. What is in it for them (FI) to take legal action about the transfer? 

What does the "transfer is scheduled pre-dead and automatic" mean?  

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Top It Up said

HISAhopper said

... I hope the FI would not know when its client dies. The transfer is scheduled pre-dead and automatic. What is in it for them (FI) to take legal action about the transfer? 

What does the "transfer is scheduled pre-dead and automatic" mean?  

Sorry If I was not clear about that. I meant that the transfer is scheduled before my death ( If that happens) and will take place automatic after my death so I assume there is nothing fraudulent about the transfer. Hope that clear it up.

May 28, 2018
7:20 pm
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HISAhopper said
I meant that the transfer is scheduled before my death ( If that happens) and will take place automatic after my death so I assume there is nothing fraudulent about the transfer. Hope that clear it up.  

Taking place after death ... doubt that transaction will occur and if it did it would most certainly be reversed.

Certainly as an Executor, I would be reviewing any and all tranasactions with respect to Probate and Estate beneficiaries.

May 28, 2018
7:41 pm
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Taking place after death ... doubt that transaction will occur and if it did it would most certainly be reversed.

Certainly as an Executor, I would be reviewing any and all tranasactions with respect to Probate and Estate beneficiaries.  

The case of an Executor who stops or reverses the transaction is non-existent in my book because I will make sure that the transaction is aligned with what is in the will.

May 28, 2018
7:47 pm
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HISAhopper said

You read my mind precisely, I hope the FI would not know when its client dies. The transfer is scheduled pre-dead and automatic so I assume it would go through smoothly given the FI does not know. In the worst case where FI stops the transfer or take legal action after the transfer, I have it in the will.

No I have not asked about the scheduled transfer when a client dies! What would you do to make sure your money going to loved one(s) if you can't make all accounts joint? I am all ears.

You are correct that there is a good/personal reason that I couldn't make a joint chequing, hope that would change in the future.  

So... you want this person to have your money, but only if you're dead and can no longer use it yourself.
In your will, the money will go to this person regardless.
But of course if it goes through the will, there will be probate and there will be fees associated with that and it will take longer.
So, it sounds like your strategy is to try to avoid probate.

There is no way to know for sure if your predated requests for transfers would go through and not be revoked when they find out you were dead at the time unless you ask in writing and get an answer in writing or get legal advice. And there is reason to think it would be revoked.
The requests of the deceased are properly dealt with through their wills or joint ownership, unless it's a TFSA/RSP with named beneficiary. The banks know this and that's the rule they will likely follow. I can't see them allowing the requests of a person now deceased to evade the process that is laid out in law. When you file for probate, you have to enter all the assets of the person at the time of death. I am not a lawyer but i think the bottom line is that a dead person can't do any banking, no matter how far in advance he may have planned it.

My advice, unsolicited, would be to stop worrying about what might happen if you happen to die within that particular window. Once you're gone, you won't care anyway.

Salud!

May 28, 2018
9:40 pm
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Loonie said

So... you want this person to have your money, but only if you're dead and can no longer use it yourself.
In your will, the money will go to this person regardless.
But of course if it goes through the will, there will be probate and there will be fees associated with that and it will take longer.
So, it sounds like your strategy is to try to avoid probate.

There is no way to know for sure if your predated requests for transfers would go through and not be revoked when they find out you were dead at the time unless you ask in writing and get an answer in writing or get legal advice. And there is reason to think it would be revoked.
The requests of the deceased are properly dealt with through their wills or joint ownership, unless it's a TFSA/RSP with named beneficiary. The banks know this and that's the rule they will likely follow. I can't see them allowing the requests of a person now deceased to evade the process that is laid out in law. When you file for probate, you have to enter all the assets of the person at the time of death. I am not a lawyer but i think the bottom line is that a dead person can't do any banking, no matter how far in advance he may have planned it.

My advice, unsolicited, would be to stop worrying about what might happen if you happen to die within that particular window. Once you're gone, you won't care anyway.

Salud!  

Thanks for your input.
I do care whom my hard earned money is going to after my death, it is just me.
Probate is not always required but if the bank wants it, the executor will have to deal with it.

May 28, 2018
9:55 pm
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There's definitely no savings in probate tax in Ontario as the money will still be in the account at time of death. From Ontario Ministry of Finance: Estate Administration Tax:

Estate administration tax, formerly known as probate fees, is charged on the total value of the deceased's estate. The total value of the estate is the value of all assets owned by the deceased at the time of death, including:…

HISAhopper said

…What would you do to make sure your money going to loved one(s) if you can't make all accounts joint? I am all ears. …

One could create an inter vivo trust by making an account joint with someone trusted and give directions to him or her. I wrote about that possibility earlier.

Deceased wasn't sure his son, the executor, would fulfill a bequest to a granddaughter. The granddaughter was an estranged daughter of the executor/son! So, deceased made a nephew joint on an account and gave the nephew instructions for disbursing the money in the account after death.

I think it would be good to get some legal advice from an estate lawyer. If one wants to do such things, one needs to really understand the issues involved.

Problem with the scheduled posthumus funds transfer idea is that it is not legally final. Bank may not be able to reverse the transfer later after being notified of your death. But, the executor could, through the courts, especially if there isn't enough left in the estate to pay creditors or honor all the bequests in full.

May 28, 2018
10:22 pm
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Someone who thinks a dozen or more individual transfer requests x 4 is too much probably isn't going to want to see a lawyer and/or set up an inter vivos trust.

May 29, 2018
11:27 am
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Thank you all for the insight, it is an issue that I always am curious to find out what the legal ramification would be. The issue may be legally complicated if there are many parties involved in the will.
Let me say that my scheduled money transfer is going to a person who is my beneficiary and my executor. I think that is going to make matter simpler. The executor would not request the bank to reverse the transfer though.
I read that probate is not legally required in Ontario Estate Law, so the executor will fulfill that upon the bank request. Correct me if I am wrong, there is no law broken here. The bank will eventually find out that scheduled money transfer is going to the same person as it states in the will.

May 29, 2018
11:42 am
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On the surface, it reads to me that your sole intent is avoid Probate (ie will the entire Estate to an in cahoots Executor/Beneficiary who would then parcel out the Estate as identified in a "secondary" will) - and unless the Executor and sole beneficiary is a spouse, I'm not sure that's achievable. I'd be checking with a lawyer NOW for advice on your future plan.

OR maybe, this is just Charles Kuralt 2.0.

May 29, 2018
6:56 pm
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HISAhopper said

I read that probate is not legally required in Ontario Estate Law, so the executor will fulfill that upon the bank request. Correct me if I am wrong, there is no law broken here. The bank will eventually find out that scheduled money transfer is going to the same person as it states in the will.  

Estate law does not require probate. However, estate law legally discharges those who owe the deceased when they paid what is owed, as directed by the executor appointed by a probated will.

If one does not wait for a probated will, then one could end up having to pay what is owed again should a different will get probated or the will is ruled invalid.

A TD Bank branch didn't wait (see previous post). TD Bank ended up having to pay the US$700,000 a second time, this time to the rightful heir.

May 29, 2018
8:20 pm
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I think you should talk first to your rep at Meridian. Be up front with them. Tell them what you want to accomplish and ask what is the best way to accomplish it.
Then, if necessary, you should talk to a lawyer.
If your intention is to act above board, this is where you will get the help to do it right.
if not, I doubt any of us can help you.

FWIW, I recently had a hand in dealing with an estate that did not require probate. The reason the lawyer felt this was correct was because the deceased had negligible assets of his own, really just a few clothes, quite a few books, etc. Everything else was in joint ownership with wife. I actually tried to argue that we should do probate, which, literally, is a proving of the will, but the lawyer, a man of some 50 years experience and a former bencher, said it would be a waste of money to bother with the process. The key thing in his decision was the lack of individually owned assets at time of death.

May 29, 2018
10:24 pm
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Loonie said

FWIW, I recently had a hand in dealing with an estate that did not require probate. The reason the lawyer felt this was correct was because the deceased had negligible assets of his own, really just a few clothes, quite a few books, etc. Everything else was in joint ownership with wife. I actually tried to argue that we should do probate, which, literally, is a proving of the will, but the lawyer, a man of some 50 years experience and a former bencher, said it would be a waste of money to bother with the process. The key thing in his decision was the lack of individually owned assets at time of death.  

Another key thing is the joint ownership was with a spouse. The presumption when joint with a spouse or minor child is one of advancement. Both legal and beneficial title are presumed to be passed on death.

Would be different had the ownership been joint with an adult child. The presumption is one of resulting trust on death. Legal title is passed, but not beneficial title. The adult child is then presumed to hold the asset in trust for the estate.

Nelligan O’Brien Payne article Joint Bank Accounts – Are they a good idea? goes into the details. The idea of making the account joint and also giving POA to the same adult child is also mentioned.

May 30, 2018
12:18 pm
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Maybe I don't understand how the process works, as the probate is optional, does one have to do the probate at the beginning of the process or can wait till the need arises?

May 30, 2018
12:53 pm
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I have to say, with Probate fees in Ontario @ $15,000 / $1,000,000 this whole antic / scheme / plan hardly seems worth the time / effort of all parties concerned.

May 30, 2018
5:40 pm
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HISAhopper said
Maybe I don't understand how the process works, as the probate is optional, does one have to do the probate at the beginning of the process or can wait till the need arises?  

Probate is only optional in certain circumstances. The executor has to establish access to assets in order to distribute them to beneficiaries. If a financial institution requires probate in order get at those assets, then probate will be required. A land registry office is not going to transfer ownership of a property without valid instruction. Probate also protects all concerned from efforts by others to take hold of the assets.

All authorities are going to want to see a death certificate, which means they will know when the death actually took place. This is why you should ask Meridian if your plan would be acceptable to them. The fact that you seem to be wanting to avoid this does not look good.

You should be able to access a book called The Executor's Handbook through your local public library. Get the most recent edition that you can. It's Canadian, gives particular information for certain provinces, and will give you a good overview of the reasons when you would need probate.

It's true that probate fees in Ontario are basically only 1.5%, but there will be additional costs for the lawyer and the application itself.

May 30, 2018
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Loonie said

It's true that probate fees in Ontario are basically only 1.5%, but there will be additional costs for the lawyer and the application itself.  

My experience as Executor, high-value B.C. estates, straight forward lawyering with no bickering or interventions by beneficiaries - total estate lawyer expense (including all fees) $4,500 -$5,000.

May 31, 2018
8:03 am
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Thank you all for the comments and advices, I guess I have 2 options now:
One is to send money to Meridian and risk having the money locked in there until the probate is presented.
Two is to send money to Tangerine where it is safe in a joint account.
Will think about that.

June 3, 2018
5:48 am
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I think the odd that I am dead in the next 4 months is a tiny 1% and the odd that Meridian would lock up my money in case of my death is 50% so the odd total to 0.5% I decided to go with Meridian and surprisingly with a joint account.

June 3, 2018
9:14 am
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HISAhopper said
I think the odd that I am dead in the next 4 months is a tiny 1% and the odd that Meridian would lock up my money in case of my death is 50% so the odd total to 0.5% I decided to go with Meridian and surprisingly with a joint account.  

You may be interested to know that the money isn't 100% locked up on death without the joint account.

The reason the account is frozen is that the bank can become liable if they release the money and it turns out later there isn't enough left in the estate to pay off all the creditors. Creditors and beneficiaries who end up worst off as a result can sue the bank for the difference.

But, some creditors, like the funeral home, are entitled to be paid in full first under bankruptcy laws before other creditors. So, no creditor can end up worst off if the bank releases money for certain things, like the funeral expenses, for example.

This is from If the account is frozen, how does the executor pay for the funeral? written by Newfoundland lawyer Lynne Butler:

As mentioned, the follow-up question to whether an account is frozen is whether an executor must pay estate expenses out of his own pocket. In particular, funeral bills were a concern, as they tend to amount to thousands of dollars. The good news is that if an executor or family member takes the funeral bill to the bank where the deceased held his account, the bank will pay the funeral bill directly from the deceased's money. The money won't be given to the executor or family member; it will be sent directly to the funeral home.

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