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2021 10 22 GIC Rates Increase
October 24, 2021
4:40 pm
Bill
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Loonie, despite your direction re what words there is "no need" for other people to use, thanks but I'm going to continue to use "probate fees" to refer to estate administration tax. It's broadly used and generally understood by people, probate fees suits me fine.

October 24, 2021
4:54 pm
AltaRed
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In some provinces which base their fees on estate value, probate fees clearly behave more like a tax (land transfer tax anyone?) but the same could be said for a lot of other 'fees' too. It is semantics and maybe shouldn't be the tail wagging the dog?

October 24, 2021
5:39 pm
Loonie
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Bill said
Loonie, despite your direction re what words there is "no need" for other people to use, thanks but I'm going to continue to use "probate fees" to refer to estate administration tax. It's broadly used and generally understood by people, probate fees suits me fine.  

You go ahead and do whatever you want, even if you know it's inaccurate. I will feel free to correcct it if I feel like it.

October 24, 2021
6:07 pm
Loonie
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AltaRed said
In some provinces which base their fees on estate value, probate fees clearly behave more like a tax (land transfer tax anyone?) but the same could be said for a lot of other 'fees' too. It is semantics and maybe shouldn't be the tail wagging the dog?  

Is it really so difficult to call things by their correct names? Surely, with all the acronyms and neologisms that you use regularly, this should not be an issue.

I don't think it's simply semantics. It's a simple distinction between the meanings of two words.

Land transfer tax is a tax, no problem there.
Probate levy is a tax too.
Neither provides anything to the payer directly in return.

I pay a fee for a driver's licence; it gives me the privilege of driving and pays for the test; it's not a tax.
I pay a fee to belong to a club or gym etc; I get to use the club or whatever; it's a fee, not a tax.

I can't think of any other 'fees' that are actually taxes off the top of my head.

I don't know who is wagging which tail but I do know it can be difficulty to teach old dogs new tricks!sf-smile

October 24, 2021
6:51 pm
Kidd
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Hi Loonie.

We in ontario have a health fee on our income tax. Dalton couldn't call it a tax because the provincial unions had a clause in their agreement. "Any NEW tax and we all get a raise." So Dalton did a song and dance, to name it something other than a tax. It is also applied, right on the end, after all the deductions have been claimed.

October 24, 2021
6:55 pm
AltaRed
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Loonie, probate fees pay for court costs (time and administration) to process the probate application, search for and validate that the Will is the last legitimate/legal will, that the purported Executor of the estate is indeed the valid Executor, and grant the permission for the Executor to disburse the estate's assets according to the Will. So yes, there is a service rendered. Some provinces have just a fixed fee, or tiered fees, to process the application, not a percentage fee (or tax as you wish to call it) of estate value.

Some provinces also have only a fixed land registration fee to process changes in land ownership (title), i.e. not a percentage of transaction value. Call it what you wish. Others beg to differ.

October 24, 2021
8:36 pm
GR
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All subsequent postings after the first two or three on this thread have absolutely nothing to do with the subject topic of Hubert's GIC rates!!
With all due respect, do rants about GICs and the definition of taxes belong on this thread?

October 24, 2021
9:24 pm
Loonie
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Kidd said
Hi Loonie.

We in ontario have a health fee on our income tax. Dalton couldn't call it a tax because the provincial unions had a clause in their agreement. "Any NEW tax and we all get a raise." So Dalton did a song and dance, to name it something other than a tax. It is also applied, right on the end, after all the deductions have been claimed.  

In the olden days (and maybe still, on the form, as I haven't looked at it), this was called a premium, as in "insurance premium", which it is.

October 24, 2021
9:35 pm
Loonie
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AltaRed said
Loonie, probate fees pay for court costs (time and administration) to process the probate application, search for and validate that the Will is the last legitimate/legal will, that the purported Executor of the estate is indeed the valid Executor, and grant the permission for the Executor to disburse the estate's assets according to the Will. So yes, there is a service rendered. Some provinces have just a fixed fee, or tiered fees, to process the application, not a percentage fee (or tax as you wish to call it) of estate value.

Some provinces also have only a fixed land registration fee to process changes in land ownership (title), i.e. not a percentage of transaction value. Call it what you wish. Others beg to differ.  

All taxes go into government coffers, out of which government expenses are paid. But there is no direct relationship between the probate tax and any service rendered (as I said above, 24). It's based on assets, at least in Ontario. The more you have, the more you pay. A will costs the same to examine, no matter how much money is in the estate. I believe that was part of the Supreme Court's reasoning.

If you want to argue with the Supreme Court, I guess you can do that, but i think it would make more sense to try to understand their thinking since they set the rules of interpretation. I am not their spokesperson, however.

October 25, 2021
4:35 am
dentgal
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I am risk adverse, but have been slowly increasing my investments over time. I started off using JUST GIC's--which is all my parents ever did. To save money, you either have to make more or spend less. Notwithstanding all the complaints about inflation, etc, I have found that through compound interest, my small nestegg grew substantially, just with GICs. Sure it is tough in this environment. I probably have half my income now in mutual funds, some stocks, some ETFs, and mainly balanced funds. The other half of my portfolio is in GICs. Having grown up with parents who lived through the Great Depression, I still believe that "cash is king". Everyone has to do what they are comfortable with.

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