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Physical branches desired, but rarely used
June 21, 2024
8:31 am
AltaRed
BC Interior
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CAD said
Cash will exists as long as there is a 'gray' economy in this and other countries.  

Most likely but I will not say 'always' or 'forever'. As use diminishes, its availability and utility will also diminish through reduction of ATMs and branch cash counter service.

June 21, 2024
9:20 am
Alexandre
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CAD said

Sorry, but I do NOT have 'everything' on my phone nor plan to have it. Phone is just that - phone. But this is NO way of payment for me. NEVER!

With all payment info I already have on my Android phone, and considering electronic IDs are coming, losing it could be as devastating as losing wallet.

Except, my smartphone is PIN protected. It is also fingerprint protected. My wallet is not.
With Android 15 which is right around the corner my smartphone will get "Protection theft lock." If unlocked smartphone is pulled from my hand, it'll lock itself. My wallet will still not.

As I am closer to retirement that to Gen Z age, my plan is the following: I'll keep smartphone with me with payment and IDs info. I'll keep wallet with all physical cards (ID/credit/debit) at secure place, not on me.
If my smartphone is stolen, I can restore my IDs and cards on new smartphone. Much easier and faster than getting new driver's, health, credit, debit, SIN, loyalty cards after wallet is lost or stolen.

June 21, 2024
12:57 pm
Alexandre
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Alexandre said

As I am closer to retirement than to Gen Z age, my plan is the following: I'll keep smartphone with me with payment and IDs info. I'll keep wallet with all physical cards (ID/credit/debit) at secure place, not on me.

Having said that, I decided to do an audit of what I have in my wallet and how ready it is to be transferred to Google Wallet on Android smartphone.

Here is what I have found.

I have Ontario driver's license and health card (OHIP). The Government of Ontario project of digitizing them started in 2021, but it is currently on hold. I'll have to carry these cards with me.

All credit cards I have can be transferred to Google Wallet. The only problem is grocery shopping: I routinely exceed $250 tap-and-go limit, I think that makes contactless payment through Google Wallet not an option.
I'll try next time I am over $250, but I am sure it'll fail, I will have to insert card to reader and punch PIN number.

Presto card (transit pass) - transferred it to Google Wallet. Drawback: that invalidates physical Presto card. Be aware of that, and they very prominently warn of this during the transfer.

EQ Bank prepaid Mastercard I use for cash withdrawals - transferred, but withdrawal can only work at ABM supporting NFC. Have not been around ABMs in years, will need to check if nearby ABMs offer contactless, before removing EQ card from my wallet.

Loyalty cards (Petro Points, Canadian Tire, etc., etc.) - all seamlessly transferred to Google Wallet.

-----------

So, going fully digital is hit and miss for now, with major holdback coming from Ontario government.

Even than, even if you do not want to use Google Wallet for payment cards, it is very convenient place to dump all loyalty cards to.
Same with Apple Wallet, I assume.

My physical wallet now contains just four things: Ontario drivers license, OHIP card, TD credit card for groceries and EQ card.
If nearby ABMs support NFC, I'll take EQ card out and have just three items in my wallet.

June 21, 2024
1:19 pm
AltaRed
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We have tickets to a play in a local theatre in September. I had the option of storing those in Google Wallet on my phone and they now reside there. I, however, must now not forget to take my phone to the event.

That all said, I still find it more convenient to use Tap-n-Go with my credit card than to use Google Wallet for credit card purchases and almost always defer to that method.

June 21, 2024
1:30 pm
everhopeful
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I rarely pay with cash at stores... because I hate carrying change, and i can earn cashback by tapping the card. But I always carry at least $40 cash and keep another $100 at home, for use as a backup when POS networks go down.

By 2050, ATMs could be as hard to find as a payphone is today.

June 21, 2024
3:34 pm
CAD
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@Alexandre

This is all nice and dandy as long as there is electricity and Google is not off-line.
I do not tryst ANY cloud system and will resist to put ANY of my personal data on a cloud as long as possible.
I refuse to be forced to carry 'smart phone' in order to have drivers license , OHIP, whatnot stored there. Do not care of phone's security features.
You did mention upcoming Android OS. That means you HAVE TO BUY new phone. It is like WTF??? I am forced to have latest and greatest in phones in order to exist??
Not bloody likely!
I am sure you will be happy when Google or any other tech company starts implanting chips into your body.
Then there will be no more need for any cards, documents, etc.
Imagine 'your' bright future: you get into grocery store, grab whatever you like, just walk out of the store, no need to tap or slide any cards. 'Smart' scanner will scan you to the bone marrow, charge your account for everything you put into your pockets, bags, etc. and provide comprehensive report how good all that junk you bough is for your health. I say junk as there most (all) food will be GMO. Not to worry, there will be NO paper - you will hear pleasant voice telling you balance, calories, fat, protein, etc. inside your head and it will be reported to SuperOHIP to increase your health coverage fee as 50% of purchase will increase risk of getting at least 4-5 new illnesses.
I hope you will enjoy the future.

June 21, 2024
3:48 pm
mordko
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The other point to consider is educating kids about money.

A typical middle class family sees no cash in day-to-day life. Bills are payed via plastic, balance goes off automatically and there is little need to discuss money - assuming you are well off.

If care isn’t taken, kids won’t appreciate the value of money. I see that a lot in Canada and its really quite harmful.

There is nothing like taking a kid to a toy shop, giving him ten 10s and getting him to choose what he wants - a single $100 toy or a bunch of cheeper ones. Or having kids sell lemonade. Or to look after ducks and sell eggs. Or selling pop by the glass - whatever. Getting a feel for cash and its value is surprisingly important.

June 21, 2024
5:12 pm
everhopeful
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Very good point... money is much easier to spend when it is just numbers on a screen and a tap.

Thats probably why banks and retailers are moving us in that direction.

June 21, 2024
5:17 pm
savemoresaveoften
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mordko said

You can take it any way you like. I don’t expect you to know what’s happening at my farm. I did expect you to know basics about your own industry, like MER.  

You have a good memory but a sour loser at the same time,

June 21, 2024
9:44 pm
AltaRed
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Somehow I think post #26 has gone on an unprovoked rant? Alexandre, I think, was simply saying what she has done/will do, to go as digital as she can. I see nothing in her posts that suggest everyone is going to have to go close to 100% digital if they do not want too.

That said, more and more of what we do on a transaction basis will be geared towards digital offerings and those that do not move in that direction may be inconvenienced with manual, or limited, processes. Access to ATMs and physical branches are two such examples that will most likely become more scarce over time requiring people to travel greater differences to access those services.

[Hint: So will gas stations 20--30 years from now when most road transport may be electric or hydrogen]. It is simply Econ101.

As I said earlier, I still find it easier to pull out a credit card for 'Tap' but a few friends/family of mine are comfortable with using their Wallets on their smart watches. I doubt very much I will go that far any time soon, but I will use Google Wallet off my smartphone from time to time.

June 22, 2024
3:41 am
savemoresaveoften
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Agree with AltaRed, I use my credit card whenever possible, whether it’s a tap using my phone, or pulling physical card out from my wallet when it’s over the limit. Much easier than using cash, no one can deny that.
As for the cash that I collect from whatever such as golf skin games, kijiji selling, now I know giving it to the farmer is a great way to get rid of those coins, thanks to this thread !

June 22, 2024
6:39 am
Alexandre
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CAD said
@Alexandre

I refuse to be forced to carry 'smart phone' in order to have drivers license , OHIP, whatnot stored there. Do not care of phone's security features.

You missed one point, which is important. Your wallet is not password protected. You lose it - whoever has your wallet will have full access to its contents.

Not so with smartphone.

You did mention upcoming Android OS. That means you HAVE TO BUY new phone.

It will be free upgrade to my smartphone.

I am sure you will be happy when Google or any other tech company starts implanting chips into your body.
Then there will be no more need for any cards, documents, etc.

I think it will be facial and fingerprint recognition. In China you can already pay for a ride on public transportation by letting them scan your face. In the US they experiment with payment at stores by fingerprint scanner.

Imagine 'your' bright future: you get into store, grab whatever you like, just walk out of the store, no need to tap or slide any cards.

According to YouTube videos, that already happens in America quite often, especially in big cities.

Sarcasm about our neighbors to the South aside, now that I made an audit of what I have in my wallet, I switched to skinnier wallet. The one that can keep just four cards and one-two paper bills.
The one I had before was quite fat, with many compartments for cards and even tiny compartment for coins.

I can't get rid of my wallet yet, but the trend is clear. As well as with ABMs - keeping them idle will become as unsustainable for FIs as keeping idle payphones became unsustainable for telecom providers.

June 23, 2024
2:38 am
smayer97
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Convenience vs security...

@CAD true
@mordko true

Also consider if government decides to target you because you are not being a good enough citizen, according to their standard... how much easier it is to cut you off...

June 23, 2024
5:04 am
Alexandre
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smayer97 said
consider if government decides to target you because you are not being a good enough citizen, according to their standard... how much easier it is to cut you off...  

Not in any way easier. In fact, same as now.

Unless you can explain how having electronic copy of government ID card on smartphone with ID card itself in safe deposit box at the bank gives the government more powers to target citizen.

This is very specific topic: having electronic copies of ID cards, transit passes, loyalty cards, etc. on smartphone, thus eliminating need for a wallet, for visiting FI branches and for ABMs.

Don't make it into the all encompassing topic of government surveillance and targeting its citizens.

June 23, 2024
6:48 am
RetirEd
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AltaRed: We won't find common ATMs without fees attached - and those are already charging $1-$3 per transaction! Those convenience stores only do it for the commission they get. In fact, most banks even charge their own customers those fees at their own in-store ATMs!

I'm already a senior and I've never lost a wallet yet. It could happen any time. But mobile phones also get stolen, break down, lose network support (especially in emergencies like disasters), get hacked, become obsolete or end up in the hands of untrustworthy repair shops. They must be replaced regularly at huge cost.

I've never paid more than $12 for a wallet.

Any of the above or other classes of outage leave the user stranded, unable to even buy a soda, for undetermined amounts of time (usually a few days for even the most basic functions) while they struggle to stop, transfer and replace all their connections. And pay lots of late-payment penalties. (UNLESS they can get to a REAL BANK BRANCH that recognizes them!)

Hong Kong's "Octopus card" is a good example of what happens when one lets too much information get centralized. Even your library record goes into it!

Many Sci-Fi tales treat cash as something only criminals use, too.

I always used my stash of laundry coins as emergency cash. Now they've put in laundry cards that charge us a fee whenever we add cash. And they give themselves the right to keep all cash if the card is lost of stops working! AND charge us a hefty card-replacement fee, too! They also get to earn cash on unspent balances, without any way to retrieve them.

Similar shortcomings accompany most stored-value transit passes.

I'm keeping my wallet. And dumb-phone.

RetirEd

June 23, 2024
6:50 am
AltaRed
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The facts still are that physical branches AND ATMs will continue to reduce in quantity as usage continues to drop. There is a tipping point where institutional cost to have them far outweighs the value proposition (keeping customers) of having them. Which was the original thesis of this thread.

People will automate (digitize) to the degree they are comfortable with, or to the degree the inconvenience to do otherwise becomes problematic. None of us are going to stop this train and it is only a matter of how, what and when we make the change, or die off first.

Added: There is no particular reason why FIs could not get together and collectively fund a no-fee ATM that serves multiple institutions. It would save them money to have one collective ATM than 5 FIs having 5 ATMs. I think that might happen someday but who knows when? Or ATMS could eventually vanish if we truly become cashless (unlikely).

The point really is that physical branches and ATMs are on the decline and we will make changes in our habits accordingly.

June 23, 2024
7:22 am
Alexandre
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RetirEd said
We won't find common ATMs without fees attached - and those are already charging $1-$3 per transaction! Those convenience stores only do it for the commission they get. In fact, most banks even charge their own customers those fees at their own in-store ATMs!

Off-topic, but EQ Bank prepaid Mastercard promises no-fee cash withdrawals at any Canadian ABM.
They do, indeed, refund ABM fees. I tried that card just to test it, and now it is my only card for cash withdrawals I carry with me (if I ever need to withdraw cash).

If you can overcome your dislike of online-only banks, you can open account with EQ and get their card, to save $1-$3 per transaction at Canadian ABMs.

June 23, 2024
7:59 pm
everhopeful
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Having EQ refund ABM fees is a huge benefit to their debit card, which keeps it in my wallet in case I need cash and am nowhere near my bank's network. However I often wonder if this will just be a limited time offer... their bean counters must gasp at the amount of fees they have to pay out to the ABM operators, and at some point will someone in the corner office kibosh these refunds?

June 23, 2024
8:03 pm
AltaRed
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EQ may be banking on the money they make from the float on the prepaid card to offset ABM fees. They will lose on some and make money from others.

June 25, 2024
8:16 pm
smayer97
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Alexandre said
Not in any way easier. In fact, same as now.

Unless you can explain how having electronic copy of government ID card on smartphone with ID card itself in safe deposit box at the bank gives the government more powers to target citizen....

Not. All I will say is study the Chinese Social Credit Score system and the level of control the government has over its citizens, all based on the centralized digitization of data, IDs, etc.

Add to that the fascination that Trudeau, or any other Canadian politician, has for their level of control and... :-\

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