Financial review of Canadian mid-sized banks and credit unions | General financial discussion | Discussion forum

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Financial review of Canadian mid-sized banks and credit unions
May 1, 2019
10:21 am
Doug
West Kelowna
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2601
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Everyone,

Originally, I'd hoped to make this a much more extensive report and analysis, with multiple charts of deposits, deposit maturities, loans, mortgages, and interest rate/term sensitivity and added commentary; however, compiling the data into this spreadsheet took me a few days as it is. So, for now, as promised, what I'm unveiling is a compiled, shareable Google spreadsheet containing the 2018 vs. 2017 deposits gathered through various channels (generally, direct-to-consumer and through deposit brokers/other intermediaries). For the most part, I have segmented between demand (chequing and savings) and term deposits for each of the two years. A few institutions do not break out, in their annual financial statements, demand/term deposit details, but I've noted - via footnotes - where this is the case.

On footnotes, Google Sheets doesn't permit superscripts and subscripts, so all all of my superscript numbers got converted to regular numbers. As a workaround, I've placed them in parentheses. I've also added Peter as an editor of this spreadsheet, so Peter if you know of a way to use superscript numbers in Google Sheets, feel free to edit it.

In some cases, I've had to either (a) logically estimate deposit data (i.e., Manitoba credit unions) or (b) use a source, like OSFI's financial data reporting facility (i.e., Tangerine, Peoples Trust, and Wealth One), other than the financial institution's audited financial statements or annual report for a given fiscal year (prefer audited financial statements, where available). Unless specifically stated, all data is as at December 31, 2018, and December 31, 2017, respectively, with the exception of Canadian Tire Bank, which is December 29.

As noted in the footnotes, since CIBC does not break out Simplii Financial's deposit and loan/mortgage financial data as it's just a branch of CIBC, essentially, and they don't make it a strategic business unit for financial and organizational reporting purposes, it is omitted from the chart, but I would expect them to be larger than Manulife Bank and slightly smaller than Tangerine Bank. I've also only included banks that also offer a direct-to-consumer deposit gathering channel (thus no Haventree Bank, Street Capital Bank, and Home Equity Bank). Bridgewater Bank does not publish audited financial statements and most of their deposits are reasonably believed to be through the deposit broker channel, so their direct-to-consumer gathered deposits are likely less than half the size of Wealth One's, which is minimal.

In the case of the Manitoba credit unions' virtual banking divisions, my methodology for my logical estimates is generally explained in the footnotes, but I divided the year-end deposit totals (by deposit type, i.e. demand vs. term) by their number of physical branches, commercial banking centre locations (if any), and their virtual banking branch. If a corporate office was specified, I did not add that "location" into my number of locations by which I'd divide. I generally think it's a reasonable approach as the longest-serving Manitoba credit union virtual banking division, Achieva Financial, still comes out on top, and, I think, Outlook Financial comes out in second place, which stands to reason since they're both the largest of the Manitoba credit unions in the virtual banking space and they've put more money into promoting their direct-to-consumer, online deposit gathering activities. I expect my estimates to be accurate to the nearest $25-50 million (even more accurate for the smaller Manitoba CUs).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vSLLOXY-CKr60j6B9MSPvgXsy-663bvN7Mf99mTO_04ES3txsmjNfxXXETgEjCrol8cbO3ntttSufv7/pubhtml

Let me know any feedback.

Peter, I was wondering if we could "pin" this thread to the "General financial discussions" forum, or another forum if you or others feel would be more appropriate, so that people can easily find it. sf-cool

I will try and update it annually, or biennially, and may add mortgage/loan data at a later date.

Cheers,
Doug

May 1, 2019
4:57 pm
Briguy
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 200
Member Since:
March 17, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks for all your hard work Doug !!!

You mention Outlook Financial as being second largest Manitoba credit union in virtual banking- from what I've read on this forum, it's also not too well regarded because of all the mistakes they make. And that's despite them allowing you to cash in GIC's ( with loss of interest ) . Only other one that was disliked as much was Luminus for their fees.
Edit: Also Coast Capital is disliked
https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/forum/coast-capital-savings/arrogance-at-coast-capital-pitt-meadows/

I think people should look at financial data on each credit union but then afterward take into account people's individual reviews and feedback on the forums of that FI

May 1, 2019
5:33 pm
Top It Up
Member
Members (temp break)
Forum Posts: 1363
Member Since:
December 17, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Briguy said

You mention Outlook Financial as being second largest Manitoba credit union in virtual banking- from what I've read on this forum, it's also not too well regarded because of all the mistakes they make. 

I've been an OF client from the early days until now and can't remember ever having a problem with them. I'm sure every FI has their detractors for one reason or another.

Hubert, more often than not, comes with high praise across this board, with the exception of one forum member, and she takes every opportunity afforded her to rail on them for not offering 1-year RRIF GICs.

May 1, 2019
5:40 pm
Briguy
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 200
Member Since:
March 17, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Top It Up said

Briguy said

You mention Outlook Financial as being second largest Manitoba credit union in virtual banking- from what I've read on this forum, it's also not too well regarded because of all the mistakes they make. 

I've been an OF client from the early days until now and can't remember ever having a problem with them. I'm sure every FI has their detractors for one reason or another.

Hubert, more often than not, comes with high praise across this board, with the exception of one forum member, and she takes every opportunity afforded her to rail on them for not offering 1-year RRIF GICs.  

That's great news since Outlook Financial has a lenient policy for cashing in gic's- I was just reading other people's comments on the Outlook Financial page on this forum so your viewpoint gives some balance.

I agree that every FI has detractors- also a lot of hate here for Peoples Trust but I have had nothing but good experiences with them.

May 1, 2019
5:50 pm
Doug
West Kelowna
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2601
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks, Briguy, for the kind words. sf-cool

Outlook Financial may well only be the third or fourth largest virtual banking division of a Manitoba credit union as it is just an estimate. However, I think my estimates are reasonable and within $25-50 million. They were, to my knowledge, only the second Manitoba credit union virtual banking division (after Achieva). MAXA Financial came next, which had a clunky, amateur looking website until recently, and then Hubert Financial (2011) and Implicity Financial (2013) followed. The "late bloomers" being Ideal Savings and Casera Financial came later, a couple years ago or so. My estimates have MAXA Financial in last place, at ~$41 million in HISA and $23 million in term deposits, but they could be a bit off because of their high number of branches. Even still, I doubt they'd have more than ~15% of Westoba Credit Union's deposits. They also just announced a fee increase to $1.50 for each debit transaction (from $1.00 or $1.25, I think) after the first one and their "service fees" to set up a new EFT (bank-to-bank transfer account link, presumably) are going up from $5.00 to $20.00. I want to like them, but on that basis, I would rank them and Casera Financial (for their tiered interest rate structure) at the bottom of the pack.

Advantage(s) to Outlook Financial: free supplies of cheques (like Achieva and AcceleRate); they use the MemberDirect online banking platform so would have nice, detailed member account e-Statements just like Meridian Credit Union and Entegra Credit Union/Implicity Financial (which also use MemberDirect); and their cashable GIC provisions.

Disadvantage(s): Transaction fees after 1 free debit each month.

Advantage(s) to Achieva Financial: $1.00 credit for e-Statement enrollment, Petal codes & referral bonuses, and free supplies of cheques. They also are one of the more open and transparent Manitoba CUs in terms of disclosing, at a minimum, the number of new members that join Achieva Financial each year (they attracted 200 new clients in 2018). Implicity Financial is one of the better ones at disclosing its new members and/or deposits each year.

Disadvantage(s): Non-standard online banking platform; Transaction fees after 1 free debit each month.

Advantage(s) to AcceleRate Financial: Free cheque supplies.

Disadvantage(s): Non-standard online banking platform; questionable if you can book GICs online, according to forum user reports. Transaction fees after 1 free debit each month.

My "top picks" would be the following:

1) Hubert Financial and Implicity Financial (tied)
2) Outlook Financial
3) Achieva Financial

Cheers,
Doug

May 1, 2019
6:28 pm
Kidd
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 371
Member Since:
February 27, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I also use Outlook Financial and the error in my understanding with them was... my fault.  So, i would have to say, i am happy with them.

An issue... their forms are located outside the login screen, meaning they are found branched off the left side of their main page.

I suggested... if you made the pages available inside the protected area, 90% of the data wouldn't have to be entered because, it's after the secured login, you would know who i am.  Name, address, account #, secret password, do you have an account with us? Etc.  Me to Me is inside the safety zone but they have restrictive withdrawal limits.  ALL gics are outside the login zone.  Forms are mostly sent electronically, unless a signature is required. 

In the other forums here, i have mentioned. Outlook deposits are 100% insured by an insurance company... okay.  In the event of a major problem, insurance companies NEVER (yes Doug, never) payout in a timely mannor.  After they've crossed all of their eyes and dotted their j's.  My great great great grandkids will have died of old age.   Then, they'll file for bankruptcy protection.

I do not live in Manitoba. I would not want to drive or fly there in the event of a major problem.

You could question, how sound is the province of Manitoba? Though... how sound is canada?

May 1, 2019
6:40 pm
Doug
West Kelowna
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2601
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Kidd said
I also use Outlook Financial and the error in my understanding with them was... my fault.  So, i would have to say, i am happy with them.

An issue... their forms are located outside the login screen, meaning they are found branched off the left side of their main page.

I suggested... if you made the pages available inside the protected area, 90% of the data wouldn't have to be entered because, it's after the secured login, you would know who i am.  Name, address, account #, secret password, do you have an account with us? Etc.  Me to Me is inside the safety zone but they have restrictive withdrawal limits.  ALL gics are outside the login zone.  Forms are mostly sent electronically, unless a signature is required. 

GICs can be booked online with Outlook Financial, as far as I am aware. Not sure Outlook's Me-to-Me Transfer limit, but all the FIs have gotten more restrictive in the last few years. I think Outlook Financial has both a PDF fillable application form and an online application form (with a credit bureau check).

In the other forums here, i have mentioned. Outlook deposits are 100% insured by an insurance company... okay.  In the event of a major problem, insurance companies NEVER (yes Doug, never) payout in a timely mannor.  After they've crossed all of their eyes and dotted their j's.  My great great great grandkids will have died of old age.   Then, they'll file for bankruptcy protection.

I do not live in Manitoba. I would not want to drive or fly there in the event of a major problem.

You could question, how sound is the province of Manitoba? Though... how sound is canada?  

I would disagree that deposit insurance payouts would be tied up for years, whether CDIC or provincial deposit insurance. While credit union failures are likely more common than bank failures, most failures result in the regulator forcing an amalgamation/acquisition of assets. Thus, assets would not be tied up at all. There might be some pains in terms of potentially having to be re-domiciled under a new transit number or be issued new account numbers, but your deposits would be safe. Even if the deposit regime was tapped and assuming there wasn't a massive calamity that brought down all the Manitoba credit unions at the same time (I'd argue nothing is safe at that point, short of cash stuffed under your mattress or converted to gold bars and a shotgun acquired), they'd have enough reserves and/or borrowing capacity to cover insured deposits.

Your last point is a good one - as I've said several times on here, CDIC is, more or less, useless. I'd like someone to tell me the last time that a Schedule I or Schedule II chartered bank failed and the deposit insurance regime had to be tapped (not a forced sale of assets and liabilities to a new CDIC member institution). I don't think it's happened.

Thus, I'm fine with (a) Manitoba credit unions & provincial government Crown corporation deposit insurance and (b) exceeding my CDIC limits for federally-regulated entities, in most cases.

A final point: the largest financial institution "failure" in Canada was that of a Crown corporation, owned by the B.C. government (for all everyone's talk of government guarantees!), called the Bank of British Columbia. It was akin to the Alberta Treasury Branches. Its assets and liabilities were acquired by Hongkong Bank of Canada (now HSBC Bank Canada) in a likely forced sale/acquisition that proved profitable for HSBC. To the best of my knowledge, no CDIC deposit insurance funds had to be tapped. sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

May 1, 2019
7:04 pm
Briguy
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 200
Member Since:
March 17, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Another huge advantage to Achieva Financial is the free transfer out of RRSP and TFSA.

May 1, 2019
9:37 pm
Peter
Admin
Forum Posts: 1000
Member Since:
May 15, 2007
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

About where to store this information, perhaps there should be a "Resources" section or page on this site where the services chart, free chequing chart, and other tools live.

May 2, 2019
9:16 am
Doug
West Kelowna
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2601
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Peter said
About where to store this information, perhaps there should be a "Resources" section or page on this site where the services chart, free chequing chart, and other tools live.  

That's a good idea, Peter, to have a "Resources" page. From there, you could link to this spreadsheet or any other spreadsheets that you, I, or others might create and share in the future. Also, from there, you could feature the three to five most recent "articles". I know those are usually featured in sidebars on various pages, but could be another way to promote the articles and encourage more user submitted articles.

Cheers,
Doug

May 2, 2019
9:21 am
Doug
West Kelowna
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2601
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Briguy said
Another huge advantage to Achieva Financial is the free transfer out of RRSP and TFSA.  

I guess, but how often would you need to do that? You can withdraw from your TFSA any time, fee free, and re-contribute elsewhere the same year (if not maxed out) or the following year (if not maxed out).

Maybe for some people that's an advantage in rate shopping, but the transfer fees are why I don't rate shop in a TFSA or RRSP. I'd pick the best, non-promotional rate for HISA and/or GICs and go there.

Also, no guarantee they will keep that. I suspect that may be the most likely fee to change in the next few years, by having them institute a reasonable $25-50 transfer out fee. They could offset that by offering to rebate any transfer out fee when you transfer in a minimum dollar amount, possibly into a GIC of at least 1 year. sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

May 2, 2019
4:48 pm
Briguy
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 200
Member Since:
March 17, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I don't like to rate shop on TFSA or RRSP either, but I like an institution that is confident enough to not charge transfer fees- it makes them stay competitive since their customers have no penalty for leaving. eg. Oaken,Achieva,Peoples Trust,Hubert

May 2, 2019
5:47 pm
Doug
West Kelowna
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2601
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Briguy said
I don't like to rate shop on TFSA or RRSP either, but I like an institution that is confident enough to not charge transfer fees- it makes them stay competitive since their customers have no penalty for leaving. eg. Oaken,Achieva,Peoples Trust,Hubert  

That's true...and there really isn't a benefit to switching between Achieva and another Manitoba credit union, unless you had a bad service experience at Achieva (which could happen). It probably hasn't happened...would you rate their customer service and turnaround times at least as good as Hubert? I would rate Implicity as good as Hubert, so if you would, then then we know that the three of them are equal in terms of service quality excellence. sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug

May 2, 2019
6:36 pm
Briguy
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 200
Member Since:
March 17, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Doug said

That's true...and there really isn't a benefit to switching between Achieva and another Manitoba credit union, unless you had a bad service experience at Achieva (which could happen). It probably hasn't happened...would you rate their customer service and turnaround times at least as good as Hubert? I would rate Implicity as good as Hubert, so if you would, then then we know that the three of them are equal in terms of service quality excellence. sf-cool

Cheers,
Doug  

I would definitely say no reason to switch between Achieva and any other institution as their rates are consistently good and their customer service is good. I only have a TFSA with them, so haven't been shifting money in and out of them. I would rate Hubert far superior to them in terms of linking external accounts with that microdeposit process they use. I really like Hubert as a hub. I use Hubert for RRSP.

May 2, 2019
6:46 pm
Doug
West Kelowna
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2601
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Briguy said

I would definitely say no reason to switch between Achieva and any other institution as their rates are consistently good and their customer service is good. I only have a TFSA with them, so haven't been shifting money in and out of them. I would rate Hubert far superior to them in terms of linking external accounts with that microdeposit process they use. I really like Hubert as a hub. I use Hubert for RRSP.  

Yeah, definitely in terms of the micro-deposit account verification method, Hubert Financial is tops (along with EQ Bank, now Oaken Financial, and Tangerine, and any others). sf-cool

I guess I was just getting at the quality of the customer service representative interactions with Achieva Financial. Have they been as good as Hubert?

Cheers,
Doug

May 2, 2019
7:18 pm
Briguy
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 200
Member Since:
March 17, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Doug said

Yeah, definitely in terms of the micro-deposit account verification method, Hubert Financial is tops (along with EQ Bank, now Oaken Financial, and Tangerine, and any others). sf-cool

I guess I was just getting at the quality of the customer service representative interactions with Achieva Financial. Have they been as good as Hubert?

Cheers,
Doug  

Yes, customer service is as good, although I've rarely used it. From a scale of 1-10 with Rogers Internet and Mobile Phone Customer Support being 1 and Hubert being 10, Achieva ties at 10 🙂

May 2, 2019
10:52 pm
Doug
West Kelowna
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2601
Member Since:
December 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Briguy said

Yes, customer service is as good, although I've rarely used it. From a scale of 1-10 with Rogers Internet and Mobile Phone Customer Support being 1 and Hubert being 10, Achieva ties at 10 🙂  

LOL, love the Rogers reference. I've never dealt with Rogers, but I suspect they're about as good as Shaw Cable out here in western Canada in terms of customer service. Bell is similarly bad (notorious for bad billing errors, from what I've heard). 😉

That's good to hear that Achieva is, just like Hubert and Implicity, top-notch in terms of customer service quality. sf-cool

In terms of bank customer service, I think I would probably give Tangerine a 6, Scotiabank a 7, Scotia iTRADE an 8, and HSBC about a 4 or 5.

Cheers,
Doug

Please write your comments in the forum.