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Bad news for savers
December 17, 2020
9:10 am
topgun
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AltaRed said
A starting engineer's wage in 1970 was about $7500 per year and minimum wage was about $1.60/hr. I know from personal history. It is non-productive to take things out of context.  

A starting teacher's wage in 1973 was $8600 per year. Some started a little higher. I do not know minimum wage in 1974 but I thought it was $2.40/hr.

Have a Great Day

December 17, 2020
9:56 am
JenE
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Just to provide some context to Koogie’s (very misleading, IMO) post, here is some information about Chrystia Freeland and her home purchase in 2013:

“Ms. Freeland, you say you’re an advocate for the middle class. I’d like you to explain how you could possibly relate to the middle class when you recently purchased a $1.3-million dollar home in Toronto’s most prestigious neighbourhood.”

Freeland began her defence by reiterating — “as was reported” — that if it weren’t for her father’s financial support, a mortgage wouldn’t have been possible.

After all, she added, the family farm is standing as collateral.

Then, however, she took a different tack.

“I’m never going to apologize for having had a successful international career, and I’m not going to apologize for buying a home for my family in Toronto Centre. I’m proud of those things,” she said.

“For me, concern for middle class Canadians is about being sure that people can have the opportunities that I had — the scholarships I had. I went to Canadian public schools. I had scholarships that supported me at some of the world’s greatest universities…I think those paths are much, much harder for Canadians today.”

With the spike in property values in Toronto today, I say Ms. Freeland was very smart to have accepted her father’s help. I’ve helped my children with home purchases and I know others on this forum have assisted their children too. Accepting help doesn’t mean a person, or Ms. Freeland, is financially unsound or unfitted for a job in finance.

December 17, 2020
10:11 am
Koogie
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What is missing from your (very misleading and partisan IMO) rebuttal is that Ms. Freeland:

- had just moved back to Canada for the express purpose of running for the Liberals
- to do so she decided she just HAD to buy a 1.3MM home in the best part of Toronto that she obviously couldn't afford on her own despite a "successful international career"
- she just HAD to buy in that neighbourhood because it was in the safe Liberal seat she was being parachuted into
- she was in her MID FORTIES. She is no longer a "child"
- she doesn't have a job "in finance" She is the Finance Minister of a G8 country.

Whether or not her father wanted to and should help her is irrelevant. That a person so lacking in financial sense decided to risk her fathers family farm solely because she needed to further her political career tells me all I need to know.

Funny how leftists often rail against "the rich" and "the elite" except when discussing the rich elitists that run leftist parties.

So much for "middle class values"

December 17, 2020
12:17 pm
Bill
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Koogie, I'll explain: in Canada it's ok to get your "family fortune" via "public service", charity appearances, public sector activity, but it's not ok to get your millions from private sector business activity, e.g. creating a vaccine in unprecedented time that will save the lives of the ungrateful masses. Hope that helps.

December 17, 2020
4:27 pm
JenE
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Koogie, you appear vehemently against parents helping children! My kids are also mid-forties and are very grateful for the help I’ve been able to provide. I’d rather help now than have them wait until I’m dead. It’s up to each individual as to what they want to do and not for you to be so angry about their choices! How do you know it wasn’t the father’s idea? Perhaps financially it made sense to use his farm as collateral. In my case it was my idea to offer help, and I’m happy to be in a position to have done so. Rather than being ‘partisan’, I was defending parent’s rights to do what they want to do. Still, I do wonder why you show so much anger. Historically, not every Minister of Finance has a financial background. Time will tell! End of subject as far as I’m concerned.

December 17, 2020
4:57 pm
Loonie
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Bill said
Koogie, I'll explain: in Canada it's ok to get your "family fortune" via "public service", charity appearances, public sector activity, but it's not ok to get your millions from private sector business activity, e.g. creating a vaccine in unprecedented time that will save the lives of the ungrateful masses. Hope that helps.  

Ah, if only the people who actually developed these vaccines in record time were getting such rewards! I assure you, those research scientists are not being paid "millions". Shareholders will do well though, but, alas, they did absolutely nothing to develop vaccines except bet on what they figured was a sure thing, namely the pharma industry.

December 17, 2020
5:49 pm
Loonie
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Criticizing a politician for her personal relationship with her father is sinking pretty low in my opinion.
Since her father is a lawyer, I'm sure he knew what he was doing, and did it willingly. He was probably understandably proud that the leader of the Liberal Party was tapping his daughter for her talents. However, politicians are fair game and people will evaluate such criticisms by their own criteria. I'm more interested in their actual performance, myself.

December 17, 2020
6:22 pm
Loonie
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For those who may not know, it would have been difficult for Freeland to find a decent house for herself and her family (husband and 3 kids plus an aunt who stays long periods apparently to help with the kids, and undoubtedly including a home office which she would need, in Toronto Centre, on short notice, for significantly less than 1.3million at that time. Now, it would be even more. In fact, I'd go so far as to say she did well to get it. There are lots of houses in Toronto Centre that cost a lot more than that!

December 17, 2020
6:31 pm
Bill
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True, Loonie, but my point was that it is the profit-seeking private sector (not just the scientists as you say, but all the other employees, managers, suppliers, owners, financiers, etc that are needed to produce and distribute the product) that will, yet again, keep us alive longer. As big pharma has done every day with its wonder discoveries (including the epic liberator of half of humanity, the Pill) for decades now. An incredible feat, it heartens me that at least some of us have gratitude as our main reaction.

As far as parents offering help to their offspring, going back forever it's the same old story, i.e. some offspring decline help as they want to stand on their own two feet, some happily grab what they can. Just an indicator of character.

December 17, 2020
8:03 pm
Kidd
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GIVING A CLUE TO THE CLUELESS.

Koogie never said they had an issue with "a father" helping "a daughter" finance the purchase of a house.

Where there was an issue... Chrystia Freeland in her mid forties, with having jobs that pay a substantial sum of money for many years... why is she in need of a bailout from her father? That was Koogie's question.

Maybe Chrystia has an expensive addiction? Her boy boss sure does.

Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't balance a cheque book are put in charge of finance.

Ontario had Janet Ecker as a finance minister, she took journalism in school which made her more than qualified to balance our books. This woman couldn't balance an egg on a spoon.

December 17, 2020
11:13 pm
Loonie
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Bill said
True, Loonie, but my point was that it is the profit-seeking private sector (not just the scientists as you say, but all the other employees, managers, suppliers, owners, financiers, etc that are needed to produce and distribute the product) that will, yet again, keep us alive longer. As big pharma has done every day with its wonder discoveries (including the epic liberator of half of humanity, the Pill) for decades now. An incredible feat, it heartens me that at least some of us have gratitude as our main reaction.

As far as parents offering help to their offspring, going back forever it's the same old story, i.e. some offspring decline help as they want to stand on their own two feet, some happily grab what they can. Just an indicator of character.  

It's true it takes a lot of employees to create, manufacture and distribute a vaccine, and it takes purchasers with deep pockets, which often only government can effectively provide, but they aren't making millions either.

I can't think of anyone I've known who has turned down a parent's offer of financial help, especially in financing a house. Almost every parent I have known of who could afford it has done so and has been happy to do so. Why detract from their happiness by suggesting their children have poor characters?

I wouldn't consider it a sign of bad character to accept. Not at all.
I would consider it a sign of a shared goal between parent and child. They both want the child to succeed and have a decent life.

That said, every parent is an individual and has their own criteria as to what they will or won't do for their kids.

When I was in undergrad, I knew a very nice guy, another student, who owned a house on Piccadilly, lived in it, and rented out rooms to other students, which more than covered his expenses. This was a great deal for him. He drove a nifty sports car as well. When I asked him how he managed this, he was very forthcoming. His dad put down a solid down payment. I was, frankly, jealous, as my circumstances were quite the opposite. I looked him up recently. He seems to have had a very good life and is still married to the woman he was seeing when I knew him. Some things are not particularly fair, but I can't blame either parent or child for taking advantage of their fortuitous circumstances.

It probably also bears mentioning in this case that Freeland was living and working in NYC before she moved to Toronto and entered politics. Her husband, as I understand it, has kept his job there. These were very good, well-paying jobs, and, as has been pointed out, they were mid-career, so it seems likely that they owned some kind of home in NYC, which is not exactly a cheap real estate market.
I think it's quite understandable that they may not have then had the additional money available to buy a home in Toronto Centre at the time.

December 18, 2020
6:20 am
fabafter50
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Kidd said
GIVING A CLUE TO THE CLUELESS.

Koogie never said they had an issue with "a father" helping "a daughter" finance the purchase of a house.

Where there was an issue... Chrystia Freeland in her mid forties, with having jobs that pay a substantial sum of money for many years... why is she in need of a bailout from her father? That was Koogie's question.

Maybe Chrystia has an expensive addiction? Her boy boss sure does.

Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't balance a cheque book are put in charge of finance.

Ontario had Janet Ecker as a finance minister, she took journalism in school which made her more than qualified to balance our books. This woman couldn't balance an egg on a spoon.  

Couldn't have said it better myself

December 18, 2020
6:24 am
savemoresaveoften
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Kidd said
GIVING A CLUE TO THE CLUELESS.

Koogie never said they had an issue with "a father" helping "a daughter" finance the purchase of a house.

Where there was an issue... Chrystia Freeland in her mid forties, with having jobs that pay a substantial sum of money for many years... why is she in need of a bailout from her father? That was Koogie's question.

Maybe Chrystia has an expensive addiction? Her boy boss sure does.

Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't balance a cheque book are put in charge of finance.

Ontario had Janet Ecker as a finance minister, she took journalism in school which made her more than qualified to balance our books. This woman couldn't balance an egg on a spoon.  

always make me wonder cabinet minister are always/usually NOT the expert in that field. Even more mind boggling is when it comes to cabinit minister shuffling.
It only proves any normal Joe can be a politician, guess thats what a free country is about....

Morneau is the only guy that has the financial credential, if only he can be more careful not mixing his business and political practice... sigh

December 18, 2020
7:09 am
Peter
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This is an unproductive discussion that should have been locked a couple of days ago.

Take your political discussions elsewhere.

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