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Achieva Financial - Power of Attorney
April 11, 2017
2:48 pm
Top It Up
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I spoke with their representative and Achieva DOES ACCEPT POAs and all that goes with the authority. Because they are online, and not storefront, it will take a period of time for it to take full effect ... what with filling out forms and mailing back and forth delays, etc.

August 10, 2017
10:17 am
swan
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Yes I have be told the same thing . Seem ridicules if any one could refuse power of attorney at will why would any one accept one ? I do not believe the choices rest with any FI to accept them or not . The courts seem to accept them so if you have one and they refuses to do as you tell them can you not just file and ask the court of queen bench to make them do what you request ?

After all that is why people fill them out ?

September 27, 2020
6:14 pm
limonium
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Just an update--Achieva "does not support the opening of Power of Attorney accounts." https://achieva.mb.ca/docs/default-source/achieva-documents/account-terms-and-conditions.pdf?sfvrsn=0

September 27, 2020
9:34 pm
Norman1
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That may mean that Achieva will refuse to open an account in the name of the donor of a power of attorney when the account opening is requested by the attorney.

That is different from refusing an attorney on an existing account that the donor opened himself or herself.

Powers of attorney: opening a bank account from the Canadian Bankers Association discusses this.

It is not surprising that online banks will refuse this kind of account opening or on-boarding. It is risky to allow someone unknown to open an account in someone else's name, that person is also unknown! What is the bank supposed to do? Rely on an unconfirmed power of attorney document, witnessed by two people the bank also does not know?!?

September 28, 2020
5:59 am
Loonie
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Norman has a valid point and it undoubtedly represents the position of most if not all FIs these days.
The distinction between someone opening up their own account and then granting a POA on that existing account as opposed to POA trying to open the account is going to be problematic. However, they CAN verify your identity just as they verify the identity of anyone opening an account. They can also verify the witness signatures if done in a lawyer's office.

However, it is increasingly going far beyond that on the part of the banks. I hold a power of attorney for someone whose account is at RBC. It is a chequing account and will soon have a lot of money in it. RBC will not allow me to so much as open a savings account on this person's behalf despite the fact that I have been known to RBC for over 40 years by holding their credit card that long (which they admit) and various accounts from time to time over that period, have lived at the same address for well over 30 years, and have an excellent credit rating, never mind that this person trusts me and expects me to do what's best. RBC is over-reaching and is in fact interfering with my ability to do what is in this person's bests interests. An online account would be completely out of the question as RBC won't allow me any online access whatsoever to the existing account, making it difficult to monitor between statements which take a long time to arrive. It can easily ake six weeks between when I write a cheque and I can see that it has gone through. They also don't provide images of the c cancelled cheques so that I can have a reliable record of how the money was spent, to protect myself. I am now having to scan the cheques before I submit them. This only gives me one side but at least it gives me the cheque number, which can be matched with the statement.

September 28, 2020
8:51 am
MG
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Loonie, how about helping the person set up an online savings account with Tangerine and then making you joint with them? I did this with my mother and it worked fine. She did not understand English very well and I had to be in the room with her when we set up the account as joint - but we were able to do it. Then I linked the account to her Big Bank account and monitored everything online. With respect to T5s, she claimed 100% of the interest since it was all her money. Just a suggestion.

September 28, 2020
4:37 pm
Loonie
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thanks for the suggestion.
For reasons I don't want to get into, I really don't want a joint account with this person.
But I am curious. about what is possible Did you have POA over your mother's account at Big Bank, or did it go through as a regular link?

September 28, 2020
8:11 pm
MG
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I had a POA but did not need to use it at the Big Bank because I had already been added as a joint account holder. The only time I used the POA was when we sold her house and I had to sign all the legal documents. She had already moved into a retirement home at that point. The issue was what to do with the substantial proceeds of sale. There was no way I was going to leave it the Big Bank and get virtually zero interest and I also did not want to open a brokerage account to invest because there was no need to risk any of her money. The POA was useless to open any sort of online bank account which would attract higher interest. I remember reading lots of comments from this site where POA was generally not accepted. So in the end I set her up with Tangerine, but not using the POA.

September 28, 2020
9:27 pm
Rick
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So is it called Power of Attorney because if you ever need to exercise it, you need an attorney to force the FI to recognize it? Seems odd that when my mother set me and my sister set up as PoA, they warned her that it takes effect immediately and we were entitled to access her accounts and perform transactions on her behalf. Yet from what I gather, it is not that easy to just walk in a bank with a PoA and start making transactions. What's the point?
My neighbor had PoA for his mother, yet when she suffered a stroke and was institutionalized, they weren't able to sell the home she no longer required, had to pay maintenance out of pocket, and wait until she passed to settle her affairs.
Doesn't seem right.

September 28, 2020
10:36 pm
Loonie
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So, for MG, the POA was not used and/or not useful, and they found a way around it by openin up an online account at Tnag and making it joint.

Rick's story about his neighbour's family not being able to sell his house is really scary. I'm glad I don't live in BC right now.
I wonder what would have happened to that house if the mother had not designated a POA at all or if the family decided to bow out because the responsibility was too onerous. I presume the provincial guardian would have had to do something, which would probably have included selling the house.
One of my grandmothers lived another 9 years after suffering a major stroke which put her into a nursing home. That would be a very long time to have to pay maintenance, plus the question of insuring the property. Insurers don't like vacant properties and will pull the plug on those policies.

September 29, 2020
5:55 am
Bill
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Rick, a POA has to be very clear as to the moment it comes into effect, e.g. some might say a doctor's assessment is required to determine incapacity. In your neighbour's case perhaps the POA was not crystal clear, though being incapacitated by stroke seems pretty clear to me, (and never mind that they couldn't sell the house, it's odd they couldn't even access her accounts to pay her home bills), in fact it seems to have been useless if they had to wait until her death when her Will instructions replaced her POA.

In any event, I'd escalate to someone in the bank who deals with POAs and find out exactly what is needed to proceed, what deficiency exists and if there's a way to remedy it. The front-line tellers have varying degrees of expertise in non-routine situations, I pretty much ignore them if they're saying "no" in these cases.

Here's some info re POAs, joint accounts, what to know when setting up a POA, etc:
https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/seniors/forum/power-attorney-financial.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/financial-consumer-agency/services/rights-responsibilities/rights-banking/rights-power-attorney.html

September 29, 2020
8:43 am
limonium
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If they have not already, I think everyone in this situation where banks are not respecting powers of attorney should complain to their MP, maybe with a copy to the federal Minister for Seniors https://www.ourcommons.ca/Members/en/deb-schulte(88799).

September 29, 2020
9:04 am
Bill
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Canadian Bankers Assoc (CBA) has some info re POAs and banks:
https://cba.ca/powers-of-attorney-bank-requirements

September 29, 2020
10:09 am
Norman1
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There is likely more to the Rick's neighbour's situation than the neighbour had shared with Rick.

I suspect it was a do-it-yourself POA document, done without the benefit of legal advice that did not meet requirements of the land titles office.

For example, in British Columbia, according to Seniors First BC: Power of Attorney, the power of attorney document can't be witnessed by just anyone if it is to be used for real estate:

Powers of Attorney for Real Estate

If you want your attorney to have the power to sell your real estate property or deal with mortgages or easements for you, there are special requirements. You must sign the power of attorney in the presence of a lawyer or notary (and the lawyer or notary must also sign), and you must register the power of attorney at the land title office and comply with other legal requirements. If you want your power of attorney to include these powers, consult with a lawyer for advice.

It is also possible the POA expired after 3 years, for BC real estate purposes, because it was missing specific wording.

The POA could also be defective: Common Mistakes of Power of Attorney for Real Estate or Land Purposes.

Some people don't bother to do a formal name change. It is going to be a problem at the land titles office when the POA is for "Bob Smith", the property is registered under "Robert Anton Smith", and one can't present a name change certificate that connects the two names.

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