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National Bank lost one of my TFSAs
August 1, 2020
9:14 am
hank
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National Bank lost one of my TFSAs.

How does a bank do that? I don't know but they're searching now for more than a week..... their accounting procedures were always bad and I had been asking why they have separate statements for TFSAs.... they had finally set up a system with one statement that included RSPs, non-RSPs, one TFSA and then a separate TFSA statement that I had to ask for 3 months ago..... and now they want me to log into a special account..... which I am totally against.... if I am working with a bank and there is no checking or savings then I see no reason to log in to check statements..... which is what NB is asking me to do.... I've heard of a possible inside job at BMO.... why adhere to a bunch of banking protocols so that they can say your password was insecure or hacked and they therefore are not responsible?

After a week you’d expect there should be a resolution. This issue which I would consider urgent, does not appear to be taken seriously..... so people, review your NB statements.

I’ve had other problems with NB..... they seem to take draconian measures for TFSA GIC renewals that if you don’t renew it (within 2 weeks of maturity, I believe) they will renew at maturity into 1 year non-redeemable GICs. When I advised that I do not want this done NB and their banking ombudsman basically said “too bad”.

I’d like to ramble on about banks in general:

If you expect justice from the bank’s Ombudsman (ie. NB or CIBC).... they are as far as I can see, a front for the banks. They are there simply to appear to provide fairness.

If you expect justice from the banking Ombudsman (over all the banks in general) .... they are also as far as I can see, a front for the banks. According to the banking ombudsman, I summarize.... it’s OK for banks to not understand the concept of maturity date or to fulfill their contracts with customers.

So what happens if you go to your Oakville MP..... per her write up before the election she advised that she was: "A champion for middle class families in Oakville", "an expert in governance, investor rights and financial market regulation" but once elected she couldn’t help either.

Who is protecting citizens from this bullying by the banks? It looks like the banks own the whole crapshoot my friends and the dice are loaded against us.

August 1, 2020
3:37 pm
Loonie
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Sorry to hear about your problem.
From what I've read, there are basically two ombudsman companies. Each bank signs up with one of them. They only make money if the bank hires them to do the work. So the likely conclusions are obvious.

From what I've read, your odds of losing, in either case, are about 85-90%, which doesn't necessarily reflect on the validity of your case.

I recently had a dispute with RBC. They seemed not to care about my plans to escalate the issue through their system, but made sure to put roadblocks in my way anyway.
It was only when I threatened an official complaint with the Mutual Funds Dealers Assoc that they suddenly changed their minds - very suddenly, overnight - after four months of dispute.

August 2, 2020
7:58 am
hank
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Thanks for the sympathies.... hopefully NB can resolve this soon.

I wonder what proportion of bank customers would actually notice if their bank lost one of their GICs as NB had done.... I've seen the comment "How in this electronic age does a bank lose track of a TFSA?".... so they are trusting the banks accounting system is bullet proof.... tres naive.

I just wanted to get it out there that you should trust the banks as far as you can throw them. That your bank statements should be thoroughly reviewed.

I'm with you with RBC, another bank where you have to read all the fine print, where they hold onto your money without giving you interest for close to a month on some of their index GICs.

This whole scam about going to the Ombudsman, as some kind of arbitrator is, I expect believed by the general public, how do you get people to see the banks are running the whole show, they don't care if you go to the Ombudsman because the Ombudsman whether they are the particular bank's Ombudsman or the banking Ombudsman (as you have pointed out) are both fronts for the banks... paid by the banks.... never mind you have to go through, I believe it was 5 layers of the bank's personnel to get to CIBCs banks Ombudsman.

August 2, 2020
8:06 am
GICinvestor
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Hank do all your TFSAs at National Bank show on My Account (CRA)? I know some here have no use for it but I can always balance my investments to it although cannot balance any investments for 2020 until 2021. Do you keep a paper or PDF copy of each TFSA from your online account at National Bank.....that can be helpful too.

August 2, 2020
8:22 am
Briguy
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Sorry to hear what happened! You're right that the federal watchdog, FCAC, doesn't get involved in individual complaints so you are stuck with the ombudsmen. Here's the links for National Bank ombudsmen, if by chance you need them.

https://itools-ioutils.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/CHP-PTP/Complain-Outilder-1-eng.aspx?Id=f6c1e79d-e0e0-4aa3-b392-ade48d64721f

I have a similar problem with my Transferwise Borderless account. They deactivated my account for no reason and have kept my money for 56 days now. They aren't licensed by Canadian authorities and their only responsibility in Canada is to report to FATCA to prevent money laundering. So I had to complain to the UK Ombudsman and so far they've emailed me twice to say they are too busy because of COVID to look into my case.

Maybe post a negative post on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/
to at least warn other potential victims. I did that for Transferwise but it didn't actually help me at all get my money back.

August 2, 2020
9:45 am
hank
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GICinvestor said
Hank do all your TFSAs at National Bank show on My Account (CRA)? I know some here have no use for it but I can always balance my investments to it although cannot balance any investments for 2020 until 2021. Do you keep a paper or PDF copy of each TFSA from your online account at National Bank.....that can be helpful too.  

The accounting procedures are messed up at NB.... the 2 TFSAs were in one account, which is what is documented with the CRA, then they split the 2 TFSAs and one went to a different account with all my other products and the other remained in it's old statement and now the registered account with the CRA appears to be gone along with one of my TFSAs..... also I have had issues with NB not submitting the correct interest for my GICs with CRA, which, though it was to my favor, I decided not to play games with the CRA.

August 2, 2020
10:07 am
hank
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hank said

The accounting procedures are messed up at NB.... the 2 TFSAs were in one account, which is what is documented with the CRA, then they split the 2 TFSAs and one went to a different account with all my other products and the other remained in it's old statement and now the registered account with the CRA appears to be gone along with one of my TFSAs..... also I have had issues with NB not submitting the correct interest for my GICs with CRA, which, though it was to my favor, I decided not to play games with the CRA.  

Also, with respect to banking online, unless you have a savings or checking account I see no reason for anyone to go online.... now the banks want you to go online, but why leave yourself open to possible hacking, remembering yet more passwords and meeting banking protocols with respect to passwords so they can come up with excuses for hacked accounts... I've heard of instances where the bank simply says that you passed your password onto somebody and it made it difficult for the person to get his money back.... the person swears that he never gave his password to no one and that he expected it was an inside job.... also, I believe the CBC documented a guy whose, I believe $50,000. Bank of Montreal GIC was hacked by possibly another inside job..... it's an easy way for banks to blame the customer and not be forthcoming about what actually transpired..... Again, I trust banks as far as I can throw 'em

Bank of Montreal stopped mailing out statements and you basically have to beg for them. NB has gone the same route, but I've asked for the continued mailing and I received the first statemnt (less TFSA).

August 2, 2020
10:16 am
hank
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Briguy said
Sorry to hear what happened! You're right that the federal watchdog, FCAC, doesn't get involved in individual complaints so you are stuck with the ombudsmen. Here's the links for National Bank ombudsmen, if by chance you need them.

https://itools-ioutils.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/CHP-PTP/Complain-Outilder-1-eng.aspx?Id=f6c1e79d-e0e0-4aa3-b392-ade48d64721f

I have a similar problem with my Transferwise Borderless account. They deactivated my account for no reason and have kept my money for 56 days now. They aren't licensed by Canadian authorities and their only responsibility in Canada is to report to FATCA to prevent money laundering. So I had to complain to the UK Ombudsman and so far they've emailed me twice to say they are too busy because of COVID to look into my case.

Maybe post a negative post on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/
to at least warn other potential victims. I did that for Transferwise but it didn't actually help me at all get my money back.  

Thanks, hopefully I'll not have to go the Ombudsman's route again.... I previously dealt with NBs ombudsman and they are not helpful... again per my previous discussion, they work for NB and what Loony pointed out 85-90% of cases go in favor of the bank.... but Reddit or the CBC are options.... thanks and sorry to hear about your issues..... I expect more and more people are going to Trust Companies

August 2, 2020
10:18 am
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I see what you are saying but BMO charges $2 for mailing a statement now vs free if online. If you gathered up all the $2, $3, $4 and $5 charges then you are pissing a lot of money away per year. Thus doing it online makes sense. Although I don't see why they all had to make it a very very greedy money grab to report back to you of your transactions with them........ nor do I agree with a $600 processing fee to buy a car either!!! Another money grab. Most of my money is in GIC's any ways so I have no fear of those accounts having issues. Passwords are different, long, and I think are good ones...so far. If I order from Amazon I order, I use my credit card, receive the item, then remove my credit card. I use PayPal for the oddball purchase that is linked to a chequing account (NOT a credit card) and the chequing account has no overdraft or support from my savings account at same credit union.

Sounds like National Bank is worthwhile to stay away from along with Tangerine.

August 2, 2020
10:35 am
hank
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If you email a contact at BMO they can email you a copy N/C.

$600. processing fee and did you go along with that?

I try to get around all the bank fees...... still believe it was TD that started that wheel rolling..... ridiculous fees and Billions in profit and whose regulating it all.... looks like the wild west for banking in Canada... I hear Australia has a better system.

I use Paypal as well, but didn't realize the checking option..... hopefully you've got overdraft protection in case Paypal asks for unexpected money..... I had a magazine subscription from Zinio and Zinio set it up that I resubscribe.... which I wouldn't have knowingly done and they just used Paypal and Paypal never backed me, but Zinio did pay me back.

August 2, 2020
10:41 am
hank
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GICinvestor said
I see what you are saying but BMO charges $2 for mailing a statement now vs free if online. If you gathered up all the $2, $3, $4 and $5 charges then you are pissing a lot of money away per year. Thus doing it online makes sense. Although I don't see why they all had to make it a very very greedy money grab to report back to you of your transactions with them........ nor do I agree with a $600 processing fee to buy a car either!!! Another money grab. Most of my money is in GIC's any ways so I have no fear of those accounts having issues. Passwords are different, long, and I think are good ones...so far. If I order from Amazon I order, I use my credit card, receive the item, then remove my credit card. I use PayPal for the oddball purchase that is linked to a chequing account (NOT a credit card) and the chequing account has no overdraft or support from my savings account at same credit union.

Sounds like National Bank is worthwhile to stay away from along with Tangerine.  

one other point.... you mention you've got a long password.... say someone hacks your account and then your bank says you gave the password to someone and they put the onus on you to prove them wrong???.... that appears to be what happened to a third party I describe earlier..... how far can you throw your bank?

August 2, 2020
10:44 am
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hank said
If you email a contact at BMO they can email you a copy N/C.

$600. processing fee and did you go along with that?
No.....I would not.......if I ever did buy from a dealer or a lot...it would be a deal breaker.

I try to get around all the bank fees...... still believe it was TD that started that wheel rolling..... ridiculous fees and Billions in profit and whose regulating it all.... looks like the wild west for banking in Canada... I hear Australia has a better system.

I pay no banking fees and haven’t for over 30 years...another deal breaker!

I use Paypal as well, but didn't realize the checking option..... hopefully you've got overdraft protection in case Paypal asks for unexpected money..... I had a magazine subscription from Zinio and Zinio set it up that I resubscribe.... which I wouldn't have knowingly done and they just used Paypal and Paypal never backed me, but Zinio did pay me back.

Yes you can link PayPal to a chequing Account ONLY. And no, no overdraft....if I don’t know the price I won’t buy until I do. I then fund the chequing account accordingly.

  

August 2, 2020
10:52 am
hank
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Hey: how did you quote within my post?...... much more readable

August 2, 2020
10:58 am
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hank said
Hey: how did you quote within my post?...... much more readable  

Press the quote button instead of reply. CB683AEE-EAAA-416E-A99C-88CF0DAD45BD.png

August 2, 2020
11:00 am
hank
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GICinvestor said

Press the quote button instead of reply. CB683AEE-EAAA-416E-A99C-88CF0DAD45BD.png  

excellent thanks

August 2, 2020
11:49 am
Norman1
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hank said

one other point.... you mention you've got a long password.... say someone hacks your account and then your bank says you gave the password to someone and they put the onus on you to prove them wrong???.... that appears to be what happened to a third party I describe earlier..... how far can you throw your bank?

Don't believe what you see in those movies. Hacking doesn't work that way in real life.

Hackers get into people's accounts by using the correct password. The bank is rightfully suspicious when a customer complains of fraud when the correct password or PIN is used on the first try.

Usually hackers obtain the password because the customer's computer has been compromised and not the bank's computer or customer is negligent. They are inside jobs on the customer's side. Have a look at this case that the OBSI investigated: Giving Your PIN to Your Friend. With complaints like those, it is not surprising that many ombudsman cases are not in favour of the customer.

A so-called example of bank hacking is in RBC customer out of pocket after fraud: What you need to know if you e-transfer money. Bank wasn't hacked. Instead, the Interac e-transfer was diverted because the recipient's e-mail account was compromised and the sender chose an insecure question and answer for the transfer.

Not sure about challenges in obtaining mailed statements. They have always been available from my accounts if I'm willing to pay the $1 or $2 each for them.

Electronic banking systems are quite reliable but not infallible. One still needs to verify statements. Some bonds disappeared from one of my discount brokerage accounts. I called and the agent said that was happening with many accounts after they migrated to a new computer system. I was asked to call back in a week or two if they are still missing.

Financial commentator Gordon Pape wrote that something similar occurred with one of his brokerage accounts. Some of his investments just disappeared one month with no sale or withdrawal transaction recorded!

August 2, 2020
3:14 pm
Loonie
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re: Zinio subscriptions.
I don't know where you live, but my public library provides Zinio magazines for free. I am not sure if it's their full collection but seems like a lot of magazines to me. The problem I haven't resolved is that, having signed up for Zinio through the library, I then can't seem to avoid endless emails from Zinio which assume I will be paying for their services. I will admit I haven't yet worked very hard at trying to eliminate this. Once I tried unsubscribing, but that also de-activated my access to them through the library and had to start over again. Nonetheless, free magazines!

Second, computer systems are NOT failproof. While some people may be careless with passwords etc., it's also true that items can disappear from a computerized record with no help from the customer. As an example, I turn again to the public lbibrary.
There is a bug in the Toronto Pubic Library's computer system. Occasionally, items that one has checked out from the library will disappear completely from the system - from the customer record and from the the library's online catalogue. It simply vanishes.
I am a heavy library user and monitor my account closely as I frequently bump up against circulation limits, so I know from experience that about once a year an item will vanish from my account. Further, on one occasion, I was logged into my account and saw a screen whip by that I had not asked for which actually deleted a record before my very eyes. The library has been aware of the problem for several years. At last report they had not been able to fix it and don't know how it happens. On one occasion, I actually went into the branch and presented the book that had been deleted so that they could potentially track it, but they still couldn't fix the problem.
The library is chronically underfunded and isn't able to upgrade its computer systems as often as it ideally should, although it still does a remarkable job of meeting public demand.
I see no reason to ASSUME that bank is necessarily any better. God knows they're cheap, nickel-and-diming us at every step if they can get away with it It's even possible the big banks are worse. I have several savings and chequing accounts, but onlly CIBC has failed to post interest for the end of July.

I'm sure many of the banking omudsmen's decisions in favour of the banks are valid, but the point is that it is a laughable system which is not fully independent of the banks. It is not worthy of the name. Further, the banks are not obligated to follow the ombudsmen's recommendations.
We need a system that is fully independent and has clout in order to honour it with the name "ombudsman".

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